Re: Need something more suitable for online play than SSHE
 

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and i think the "fishier" creatures have gone to shorthanded and no-limit (and unfortunately the shorthanded is more suited to their fishiness - they improve by accident).

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While this thought certainly sounds logical enough, and Malmuth&Sklansky advocate it in HEFAP, it isn't so when we look at the empirical data.

People on the HUSH forum here have higher win rates than people who play similar limits full handed. Of the people I know and have had the opportunity to dive into their PT databases this also seems to always be the case. I for one have a higher win rate short handed and have played enough hands both full and short to know it's a significant (in the statistical sense) difference.

While you have to loosen up, thus seemingly erasing a bit of the gap between you and the fish, the fact that you get so much more quality time with each fish apparently overwhelms this. You get to milk the little buggers for all their worth.

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i agree totally, and you articulated it very well.... also, shorthanded i think post-flop play becomes key, and the fishier ones haven't caught onto that and never will (don't get me wrong, my post-flop play needs work too). i did quite well in shorthanded but my bankroll couldn't take it and no-limit and i would keep playing when the table got very short (losing 10 hands in a row is excrutiating painful and very bad for bankroll)

it's kind of sad, i don't see the ridiculous fish around too much any more (they either quit or smartened up a little - probably the latter)

Re: Need something more suitable for online play than SSHE
 

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Nonetheless, the book is geared to crushing loose, multiway pots.


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The book is geared, in its own words, to beating games where most players do not play correctly. They either play too many flops or they play to the end with hands they shouldn't. It doesn't matter if you only have 3 or 4 opponents seeing the flop. If most of those shouldn't be seeing the flop, the game is beatable using SSHE strategy.

As stated in SSHE, HPFAP is for games where most of your opponents are playing correctly for the most part. That certainly doesn't describe any low limit online games that I have seen.

Re: Need something more suitable for online play than SSHE
 

i'm seeing low limit full table games in the middle.

some very good players and some pretty bad players (but not ridiculously where 6-7 see the flop and 3-4 continue thru the flop/turn/river)

i'm thinking SSHE might be just a tad too loose (even the tight chart) for most games out there. but it's still an excellent book and we should be able to make the adjustments ourselves. i think you'd have to go B&M to see any games where the loose chart could be used profitably.

(yes, i know i was the guy who was confused over generating a table in-between the tight and loose charts)

Re: Need something more suitable for online play than SSHE
 

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i'm seeing low limit full table games in the middle.

some very good players and some pretty bad players (but not ridiculously where 6-7 see the flop and 3-4 continue thru the flop/turn/river)

i'm thinking SSHE might be just a tad too loose (even the tight chart) for most games out there.

(yes, i know i was the guy who was confused over generating a table in-between the tight and loose charts)

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A table isn't loose, the players are. If there are some good players and some bad players at the table, you play one way against the good players and differently against the bad players.

The charts are a teaching tool. You need to get past them and learn to think about the situation, and about the players at the table. You don't play against a table, you play against individuals.

The authors in SSHE say that there is nothing sacred about their charts, and that others might work just as well for most people. But they say that the charts are a starting place to get you to think about the game. You have to learn and properly apply the principles, not mechanically play according to a chart.

Re: Need something more suitable for online play than SSHE
 

A table isn't loose, the players are. If there are some good players and some bad players at the table, you play one way against the good players and differently against the bad players.

The charts are a teaching tool. You need to get past them and learn to think about the situation, and about the players at the table. You don't play against a table, you play against individuals.

The authors in SSHE say that there is nothing sacred about their charts, and that others might work just as well for most people. But they say that the charts are a starting place to get you to think about the game. You have to learn and properly apply the principles, not mechanically play according to a chart.

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with all due respect, i think i'd like some apple pie with all those motherhood statements.

and the book basically says (and i para-phrase), don't start thinking that if i can play JTs, so T9s should be ok, so then T9o is pretty similar, so it should be o.k.. they say don't get into that line of thinking, and stick very close to the charts (assuming the game is suitable). one thing sklansky says in that book or elsewhere is do not sweat 50%/50% relatively minor decisions (obviously this is NOT no-limit)

if you're really going to get heavily into which players at the table play loose/tight passive/aggressive "timid vs. calling stations" and how tables aren't loose, players are, frankly i would skip huge sections of SSHE and get more advanced books, and you are correct that the charts should be considered quite situational.

but if you want to have fun at B&M and make a little $$$$ at it, i would get to know the tight chart very well and make a few judgements on your own (like maybe tightening up on playing any suited cards from small blind unraised)

i always see people saying that charts should only be a very general guide, but then i see people who think they are good players playing miles and miles away from any chart would suggest....

i think about games alot and look at charts in between games to make sure i haven't wavered from them completely. and i know where to get different charts for different games.

post-flop is where you have to do alot more work and no chart can help you there.

that's my rant!!!

Re: Need something more suitable for online play than SSHE
 

I agree to some extent that some games have tightened a bit pre flop, but after that there is still some real bad play. I have been called down by hands that were easy folds. I think post flop is where the good players are maintaining their edge. It is fairly easy for a fish to stop playing junk (if they want to), but learning correct post flop play is a different animal. In fact, in SSH they say that although it is important to have good pre flop play, more time should be dedicated towards improving post flop play. I totally agree with this.

Re: Need something more suitable for online play than SSHE
 

PJ, I couldn't agree more. Just because someone will fold his A-9o to your preflop raise doesn't mean he isn't a fish!

Re: Need something more suitable for online play than SSHE
 

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it's kind of sad, i don't see the ridiculous fish around too much any more (they either quit or smartened up a little - probably the latter)


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Or they go back to the full game because they lose their money slower.

b

Re: Need something more suitable for online play than SSHE
 

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It is fairly easy for a fish to stop playing junk (if they want to),

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You'd be suprised. Many players can't get past the boredom of playing fewer hands. They want to be involved in the action, not watch it. Many don't know how to watch a hand unless they are involved in it. So, even though they may stop for a little while as far as playing crap, they will most likely revert back to it. Especially after a bad run coupled with seeing other bad players take down pots with crap.

I wouldn't underestimate the discipline it takes to tighten up preflop longterm.

b

Re: Need something more suitable for online play than SSHE
 

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if you're really going to get heavily into which players at the table play loose/tight passive/aggressive "timid vs. calling stations" and how tables aren't loose, players are, frankly i would skip huge sections of SSHE and get more advanced books, and you are correct that the charts should be considered quite situational.


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Actually, you shouldn't skip huge sections as much of it is still relevant. Especially in multiway situations. How hard is it to notice a calling station and timid players at your table? This is difficult? Please.

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i think about games alot and look at charts in between games to make sure i haven't wavered from them completely. and i know where to get different charts for different games.


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It seems you are too hung up on the charts. I think even Ed mentioned when the book came out he'd rather have not put the charts in there because he figured (correctly) that many would focus on the chart and not the 'whys' of the way preflop hands are valued.

Eventually you should be able to ask yourself why you are playing a certain hand a certain way preflop. It's a very basic question. The answer shouldn't be, 'because the chart says I can...' If you're not past that, I'd suggest studying preflop even more rather than just using the crutch of a chart.

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but then i see people who think they are good players playing miles and miles away from any chart would suggest....


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Some of these players understand preflop beyond just a chart. Good players don't rely on a chart. They look at the situation presented to them and adjust accordingly.

b