Stepping down and admitting defeat
 

Maybe this should go in BBV, but I think it may have some content so I'm posting it here. Besides, I'm actually optimistic for the future, notice the icon I chose. (Mods if it should, feel free to move and my apologies.)

After taking the worst downswing I've yet to experience (about 12k+ of my used to be 35k+ roll), It's tought me some lessons that I should've already known. I know that I've posted on many occasions that you should expect to run worse than you ever have, but I've never felt how true it is until now.

I've taken bad swings many times and have always battled back. I've also had the thought "what if I don't run good again after losing 200BBs, that would really suck." Well it can happen, and it does.


Now, I've always been of the opinion that if you take a really really bad swing you probably aren't playing that great. This may be the case for me, but I can tell you one thing: I wasn't playing any worse in the last 6-7k hands than I was the 10s of thousands before them. I think the strongest part of my game is keeping level-headed and not tilting. The part I constantly doubt is my strategy. I wasn't a proven winner in the games I was playing (mostly 20/40) for more than 20k hands, but they didn't seem all that much tougher than the 10/20 which I know I beat for a long time. It really could be that I'm not a winner in those games and the long run has caught up to me. Anyway, analyzing why I had this downswing isn't the point of this thread.

The point is, I can't take swings like this. At least, not yet. I've started to doubt that I'm a winner in some of these games, and they are not the place to be doubting yourself. I think one thing that really frustrates me about poker, is when I doubt that I'm a winner. One thing that I would love, is if I KNEW I was crushing or at least beating a game. Since I need a break from these swings and the doubt, I'm stepping down. I absolutely know that I can beat any 3/6 or 5/10 game online and still make a good hourly after bonus and rakeback. So that's what I'm going to do. The swings there will seem like pebbles in the road after what I've ran into at 20/40.

It actually is a great feeling to know what I'm looking forward to in the comming months from poker. I'm going to have to put in a ton of hands to get the earn I want, but I know that I won't post another -10k month anytime soon.

I know, my epeen is way smaller now that I get to post in SSSH instead of MHSH, but bring on the 200BB downswings, I will battle back in one night! So lookout you 3/6 grinding tags, I'm gonna pwn your weak tight asses, and if you try to steal my BB, I'm gonna cut you.

So, I guess the lesson is, I don't feel bad about admitting I can't handle the swings at the moment and it might be a nice break if poker is sticking it to you as well.

Thanks for reading.

-Craig

Re: Stepping down and admitting defeat
 

I´m doing the same thing. I used to play 30/60 but decided to move down to 10/20 after a 200BB downswing.

For me it was a combination of the monetary loss and the realisation that I have still got a lot to learn. The downswing wasn´t variance, it was plain old bad play.

Re: Stepping down and admitting defeat
 

to continue your military metaphor...

You are not admitting defeat.

You are conceding your position is weak and you are executing a tactical withdrawl into a better defensive position from which to attack.

At the proper time, you will continue your havoc of destruction. In the meantime, refit and regroup. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

It's only defeat if in your ignorance to take a stand, you get surrounded, cut off, and starved out.... - better that don't happen - LOL.

RB

Re: Stepping down and admitting defeat
 

thanks for posting. gl. and guys, watch out for stacy's mom [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: Stepping down and admitting defeat
 

As a grinding tag 3-6er may I suggest that a player of your experience should not drop below 5-10, or send me your account names and I will avoid your tables. Really good luck and see you at the tables.

Re: Stepping down and admitting defeat
 

Seems like November is kind of like re-living the mass-downswing that much of 2+2 had back in January.

I'm way down this month and have talked with a couple others who are too.


The great thing about online-poker is that there will ALWAYS be a limit that is small enough for your bankroll. You can ALWAYS step-down and just play more hands to rebuild.

That's why it amazes me when I hear stories of Mike Matusow blowing through his $400k bankroll playing online before the WSOP.
You would think he might be a little more conservative with that last $50k or so after dropping his first $350k.

But tilt is a powerful force...with all those thoughts of, 'hey, if I start running well again I'll have it back in no time.'

So obviously stepping-down in limits is not as easy as just saying you're going to do it. Because there is some serious ego that is involved.
we read of bicycle-kick sky-rocketing his way all the way up to 300/600 and we want to be there too....and we want it to just happen magically without too much effort.


Obviously poker is a bit tougher than that.


I'm with goblin most of the time in that I just can't stomach some of the down-swings that my inferior game brings. And because my bankroll is a bit smaller than before I am playing at the 3/6 games too and just grinding my way back (+150BB's in the past few days...Hoo-ray!).

I've never played 20/40 though. My 15/30 play has been somewhat limited and was mostly shot-taking but I probably got in about 30k-40k hands there in 2005 (guessing...lost some p-tracker records).
I've played plenty of 10/20 this year though...and a lot of 5/10 too.


I want to move back up in limits. And I know that this stepping-down stuff is an important aspect to 'shot-taking'.
If I get clobbered, or just get uncomfortable, then I step back and grind, grind, grind.
And I do it comfortably.

If/when i build my bankroll up to a nice and comfortable level again AND I think my game has fewer leaks then I start taking more shots at 10/20 (and maybe higher if my bankroll is REALLY comfortable) and see what happens.

OR...I just keep on grinding it out at 3/6 all year (and 5/10 again soon hopefully) and am comfortable in knowing that the absolute max that I could lose isn't too terrible.


One has to know one's psychological-bankroll limitations.
I know that I probably need more than 1k BB's at a given limit to feel comfortable.

Take 15/30 for example...I know that even if I have a total of $30k that I am not going to be very thrilled with a $6k down-swing.

At 5/10 I know that I'm going to be pretty stressed if I have a $2k down-swing eat into a $10k bankroll.
So I stepped down to 3/6 before my bankroll even got that low.


I'm a wuss...but I'm also semi-responsible about this poker stuff.
And I have the incentive of enjoying this lifestyle and flexibility enough that I still would prefer it to getting a job for some prick boss at a low-paying office gig or something (where I actually would have to wake-up early in the morning....GASP!!!)


Nice post Craig. You and I shall proceed to tear up the 3/6 games. Just stay the hell away from my tables please!!

Re: Stepping down and admitting defeat
 

Sorry to hear about your downswing craig. I'm sure after dealing with the 10/20-20/40 lags the loose passive 3/6 will be a cakewalk, and you'll be back at your regular limits soon. good luck.

Re: Stepping down and admitting defeat
 

dont worry craig, we'll get your bankroll back in january playing craps.

Re: Stepping down and admitting defeat
 

going from 20/40 to 3/6 or 5/10 seems completely unnecessary

Re: Stepping down and admitting defeat
 

yah i agree... from your post it seems like you still have a 20k roll. youre a good player and shouldnt have trouble beating 10/20. i dont know why you are going to 5/10.

Re: Stepping down and admitting defeat
 

Thanks for the comments guys. It's reassuring that someone like Mbob is going through the same thing as me.

[ QUOTE ]
yah i agree... from your post it seems like you still have a 20k roll. youre a good player and shouldnt have trouble beating 10/20. i dont know why you are going to 5/10.

[/ QUOTE ]

I appreciate the confidence. I don't have doubt that I could beat 10/20 either. I just need a break from the varience. I'll probably spend a month at 5/10 and when I get some confidence back, I'll go back to 10/20.

Re: Stepping down and admitting defeat
 

[ QUOTE ]
So lookout you 3/6 grinding tags, I'm gonna pwn your weak tight asses, and if you try to steal my BB, I'm gonna cut you.



[/ QUOTE ]

It won't be a steal, and you'll find you're holding on to the bladed end of the knife if you try and cut me...and I'll be holding two box-cutters, 'cause I'm just that street...

Seriously, good luck though.

--Zetack

Re: Stepping down and admitting defeat
 

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks for the comments guys. It's reassuring that someone like Mbob is going through the same thing as me.

[ QUOTE ]
yah i agree... from your post it seems like you still have a 20k roll. youre a good player and shouldnt have trouble beating 10/20. i dont know why you are going to 5/10.

[/ QUOTE ]

I appreciate the confidence. I don't have doubt that I could beat 10/20 either. I just need a break from the varience. I'll probably spend a month at 5/10 and when I get some confidence back, I'll go back to 10/20.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've went through exactly what you are talking about a couple of weeks ago. took a shot, got crushed, returned to old limit, got really crushed, and moved a level lower than one I "knew" I could beat for a few k hands, just to get the confidence back. It was huge.

impeccable table selection is huge too. it's a lot easier to get your confidence back pounding on terrible players in position. now isn't the time to be trading blows with good lags out of position -- it will send you over the edge.

I\'m back baby!
 

Battling back!

Just played my first session since this post. 1000 hands of 5/10 for $687.75.

Wow, these games are nice compared to 20/40. I can blind steal and not get c/r'd on every f'ing turn! And there are fish...not just lagtard fish but the 70/1/.4 kind!

Ahhh, I love poker again. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: Stepping down and admitting defeat
 

[ QUOTE ]
This may be the case for me, but I can tell you one thing: I wasn't playing any worse in the last 6-7k hands than I was the 10s of thousands before them. I think the strongest part of my game is keeping level-headed and not tilting.

[/ QUOTE ]

You know, I almost hate to post this because it will inevitably spark a flurry of "NO YOUR WRONG", but you were tilting. Not admitting you tilt is also a big problem because the first step to overcoming it is accepting it and taking breaks when you feel it coming on. It is not possible to lose 1/3rd of your bankroll and not tilt.

Let me be the first person to say that I tilt and tilt pretty badly sometimes. I tilt when I get 5 dollar parking tickets. I tilt when I'm donking around in 5/10 and someone hits their straight flush draw to crack my wired pair of 2's on the river and it goes check check. As you move higher and higher tilt will affect you more and more because you're playing with more significant amounts of money, and it's something you aren't equipped to deal with. There have been times where I'll fire up 8 tables, only to have AA cracked on 7 seperate tables at the same time within 2 minutes. That's ok, I just take a break. And there are other times I take a bunch of bad beats, but I'm playing well and feeling well, so I'll get 5-6k hands in.

I've sweated people online and watched them make the most tilt-fueled plays and then try to justify it to me. Wow, just say "Oops, [censored], I tilted." and take a five minute break. Your winrate will thank you. Most people's reaction when I mention something like this is "Oh, well he obviously doesn't know me. That may apply to other people, but not me" followed by a summary of how they don't fall into this category. Whatever. I won't argue it. But you really should be aware of your emotional state at all times.

Re: Stepping down and admitting defeat
 

I took a 200bb swing this NOV. In the downswing crew!

Re: Stepping down and admitting defeat
 

I'm sorry to say that I may post another losing month for November. This has a lot to do with playing "some" $30/$60 and geting beat for a frightening amount again (well,for me at least), and then going to a lower limit and trying to recoup it all.

For the last four months, my win rate is only 40% of what it was the first 7 months of the year - and when your monthly nut is high, that's not a good thing.

Hang in there, eventually the good hands will start coming your way again (yeah, I'm tallking as much to myself as to everybody else [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]).

Dogmeat [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

Re: Stepping down and admitting defeat
 

[ QUOTE ]
Seems like November is kind of like re-living the mass-downswing that much of 2+2 had back in January.

[/ QUOTE ]
Actually, for me it was September. I had a great month of August, playing 20/40 on Party. In September, I went into freefall. I'm not sure what my loss was in BB, as I dropped limits, first to 10/20, then to 5/10. I was near even for October and have made a modest comeback in November.

I think the downswing was a combination of running bad and failing to adapt to changing game conditions. The 15/30 and 20/40 games, and to some extent the 10/20 games have gotten tougher. There has been noticeable decline in the number of super-LAG type players. I think that, prior to September, these were the players I was making most of my money from. I also think that I had started playing on auto-pilot. I found, in September, that I was frequently getting raised on the turn when I had a decent hand, i.e. tpgk, or middle pair ace kicker, etc., getting raised on the turn, and calling down do be shown a better hand. I had fallen into the habit of calling down, or sometimes playing back, with any decent hand. This worked against the maniacs. It was disastrous against the TAG, semi-LAG and weak tight players I was continuing to do it against. I also think that my play had become too predictable. A lot of players were getting good reads on me and taking advantage of my predictability.

I'm back to 15/30 now, but still pretty short banked, so I may yet have to move back down. I think it is still beatable, but the lower population of LAG's makes it less profitable than it once was. I still see a lot of atrocious pre-flop play. I see a lot of people limping, even open limping, with really bad hands. However, I don't see as much cold calling as I would like. In fact, I find I need to put in the occasional EP or MP open raise with Axs or suited connectors, to keep from just stealing the blinds with my really good hands. The post-flop play is mostly pretty reasonable now, but there are some weak-tight players, and some that are too passive with good draws, and stilla few LAG's. But the LAG's are generally not as stupid as they were a few months ago. I really think most my edge is pre-flop now, with some edge coming from proper semi-bluff and bluff frequency. OTOH, the 5/10 games are still quite soft, and the 10/20 still has a fair population of LAG's (especially the 6 max). I'm going to try to get back to 20/40, or maybe 30/60, but if those games get too tough, muti-table grinding at the lower limits may prove to be the better option.

Re: Stepping down and admitting defeat
 

I have wondered if the mid and high stakes limit games will just keep getting tougher. I just think everyone coming into poker wants to play NL these days. People making an easy living off of mid/high limit might need to adjust as most of the new fish wants to go all in, and not play boring limit. Just a thought..

Re: Stepping down and admitting defeat
 

hey man, there aint no shame in dropping limits. I've done it before, and I know others who have as well. I think one of the best strengths a poker player can have is a lack of ego. In the long run something like this can even help as it gives you something to prove and reignites motivation that might have been stagnateing. Youll bounce back. Im not even gunna wish you luck, cuz I know you dont need it.

Re: Stepping down and admitting defeat
 

I've dropped down in limits EVERY time I've moved up.

Re: Stepping down and admitting defeat
 

Next year I'm vowing to have my Christmas shopping 90% done by September. Lady luck seems to kick me in the junk every November.

I'm also admitting that da feets are for stepping down...........or stepping up for that matter, depends on who da feets belong to.

Re: Stepping down and admitting defeat
 

"...maann I cut you so bad, you gon' wish I no cut you"
Those are some bad roaches.

Re: Stepping down and admitting defeat
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This may be the case for me, but I can tell you one thing: I wasn't playing any worse in the last 6-7k hands than I was the 10s of thousands before them. I think the strongest part of my game is keeping level-headed and not tilting.

[/ QUOTE ]

You know, I almost hate to post this because it will inevitably spark a flurry of "NO YOUR WRONG", but you were tilting. Not admitting you tilt is also a big problem because the first step to overcoming it is accepting it and taking breaks when you feel it coming on. It is not possible to lose 1/3rd of your bankroll and not tilt.

Let me be the first person to say that I tilt and tilt pretty badly sometimes. I tilt when I get 5 dollar parking tickets. I tilt when I'm donking around in 5/10 and someone hits their straight flush draw to crack my wired pair of 2's on the river and it goes check check. As you move higher and higher tilt will affect you more and more because you're playing with more significant amounts of money, and it's something you aren't equipped to deal with. There have been times where I'll fire up 8 tables, only to have AA cracked on 7 seperate tables at the same time within 2 minutes. That's ok, I just take a break. And there are other times I take a bunch of bad beats, but I'm playing well and feeling well, so I'll get 5-6k hands in.

I've sweated people online and watched them make the most tilt-fueled plays and then try to justify it to me. Wow, just say "Oops, [censored], I tilted." and take a five minute break. Your winrate will thank you. Most people's reaction when I mention something like this is "Oh, well he obviously doesn't know me. That may apply to other people, but not me" followed by a summary of how they don't fall into this category. Whatever. I won't argue it. But you really should be aware of your emotional state at all times.

[/ QUOTE ]

[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

Re: Stepping down and admitting defeat
 

So are you guys dating or what?

Re: Stepping down and admitting defeat
 

[ QUOTE ]
So are you guys dating or what?

[/ QUOTE ]

Their characters probably got married on a WoW server.

-SmileyEH

Re: Stepping down and admitting defeat
 

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks for the comments guys. It's reassuring that someone like Mbob is going through the same thing as me.

[ QUOTE ]
yah i agree... from your post it seems like you still have a 20k roll. youre a good player and shouldnt have trouble beating 10/20. i dont know why you are going to 5/10.

[/ QUOTE ]

I appreciate the confidence. I don't have doubt that I could beat 10/20 either. I just need a break from the varience. I'll probably spend a month at 5/10 and when I get some confidence back, I'll go back to 10/20.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am in the same boat too. November was my first losing month this year. I did great in the three months prior, and started 20/40 in late October. I was actually winning, but at a low rate when I decided to step back to 15/30 for a while. There I dropped 90BB, and then moved to 10/20 where I dropped another 60BB or so.

I know this does not sound like a huge downswing, but it was just annoying the way it was happening. No big losses, just lots of small ones (10-30BB each) and only 3-4 winning days out of the last 20.

I'll probably do a month of 5/10 also, and re-evaluate in January. On problem I have is that I'm going to take a big hit around April 15. Once the end of the year comes I need to exclude that chunk from my bankroll and living expense money, so I don't mind being a little conservative at this point.

Re: Stepping down and admitting defeat
 

[ QUOTE ]
So are you guys dating or what?

[/ QUOTE ]

Unfortunately tongni is out of my league. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

Re: Stepping down and admitting defeat
 

nice post. im in the same boat. 6 weeks ago i was playing 10/20 6max, now im down to 3/6 6 max. no shame in reevaluating your game/rebuilding confidence/roll.

Re: Stepping down and admitting defeat
 

[ QUOTE ]
Seems like November is kind of like re-living the mass-downswing that much of 2+2 had back in January.


[/ QUOTE ]

LOL, good ol' January '05. I curse that month! Luckily I haven't followed the trend with the November downswing. I actually had a kickass Nov with a huge heater right in the middle. I did have a little downswing towards the end though. Nothing too major.

Re: Stepping down and admitting defeat
 

[ QUOTE ]
So are you guys dating or what?

[/ QUOTE ]

F*ck you

[ QUOTE ]
Their characters probably got married on a WoW server.

[/ QUOTE ]

F*ck you

[ QUOTE ]
Unfortunately tongni is out of my league.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're cool.

I'm out to do some tax preparation stuff.

Re: Stepping down and admitting defeat
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
So are you guys dating or what?

[/ QUOTE ]

Their characters probably got married on a WoW server.

-SmileyEH

[/ QUOTE ]

Meh, there's nothing like pwning noobs with my level 60 rogue on one screen, while pwning noobs on the poker tables on another screen. Yay for windowed mode.