50/100 AK vs possible straight and flush
 

20 hands on the villian, so he is basically unknown but seems tight so far. This is the first time I've seen him cold call pf, I haven't seen him go to showdown yet. This is probably boring and standard, but I want to make sure. Button in the hand sucks and is loose.

50/100 Hold'em <font color="#0000FF">(10 handed)</font>

Preflop: Hero is UTG with A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
<font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">5 folds</font>, CO calls, Button calls, SB calls, <font color="#666666">1 folds</font>.

Flop: (9.00 SB) A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises</font>, Button folds, SB folds, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, CO calls.

Turn: (7.50 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises</font>, Hero calls.

River: (11.50 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero ???

Re: 50/100 AK vs possible straight and flush
 

You should 3bet the turn and go from there.

Re: 50/100 AK vs possible straight and flush
 

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You should 3bet the turn and go from there.

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Re: 50/100 AK vs possible straight and flush
 

I say thats a really easy 3-bet on the turn there. What do you think you're behind to? I also see no reason to fear that diamond on the river. It would really suck to have your opponent check behind here. I still think you have the best hand here far too often. Given that you didnt 3-bet the turn I'd just lead the river. My preference for this hand however, is to 3-bet the turn and lead the river (assuming of course that he dosent cap).

Mike Emery

Re: 50/100 AK vs possible straight and flush
 

i like just calling down after the turn raise, cause JTs seems quite likely... why would AQ raise the turn here after K comes?

Re: 50/100 AK vs possible straight and flush
 

cuz he has kq

Re: 50/100 AK vs possible straight and flush
 

Could be being cute. Also, though we don't have much of a read to go on, this seems like a really bad board for a gutshot JT to raise, unless he has specifically JT [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. In any case KQ/AQ are very possible too, and given the flop raise more likely.

Re: 50/100 AK vs possible straight and flush
 

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i like just calling down after the turn raise, cause JTs seems quite likely... why would AQ raise the turn here after K comes?

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Even though he OP says he had 20 hands, also said seems tight, JTs doesn't fall into that category for me.

I'd go a 3 bet on turn, if he calls, check/call river. If he doesn't, bet/call river.

I don't see you losing to anything other than Ks or Qs. I think before these AQ or AK are more likely. I'm feeling AK.

Re: 50/100 AK vs possible straight and flush
 

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You should 3bet the turn and go from there.

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Re: 50/100 AK vs possible straight and flush
 

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i like just calling down after the turn raise, cause JTs seems quite likely... why would AQ raise the turn here after K comes?

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JTs doesn't seem likely to me at all. You think JT frequently raises the flop like that? The only better hand that seems likely at all is 22, so I think this is an easy turn 3-bet.

Re: 50/100 AK vs possible straight and flush
 

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i like just calling down after the turn raise, cause JTs seems quite likely... why would AQ raise the turn here after K comes?


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I dont know why AQ would raise the turn once a king slid off. But I also dont know why he would have JT [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] here. Wont JT [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] usually call and hope the others tag along rather than raise. If I was putting villian on hands they'd be as follows: KQ, AK, AQ, 33. I think all are far more likely than JT [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].

Mike Emery

Re: 50/100 AK vs possible straight and flush
 

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i like just calling down after the turn raise, cause JTs seems quite likely... why would AQ raise the turn here after K comes?


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I dont know why AQ would raise the turn once a king slid off. But I also dont know why he would have JT [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] here. Wont JT [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] usually call and hope the others tag along rather than raise. If I was putting villian on hands they'd be as follows: KQ, AK, AQ, 33. I think all are far more likely than JT [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].

Mike Emery

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ya, maybe im just being a pussy because getting capped means we are effed and i really dont want to lay this down on the river for one more bet...
if the guy is decent and realizes that the OP is a rock i dont see what he can have but the JdTd.

Re: 50/100 AK vs possible straight and flush
 

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ya, maybe im just being a pussy because getting capped means we are effed and i really dont want to lay this down on the river for one more bet...


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With that I agree. If its capped the best I think we can hope to do is pray to chop with AK. But most likely we're effed then. It especially sucks when you'd have to call this river hoping to just chop.

Mike Emery

results
 

Results:
river went check-check, villian had KQ.

Re: 50/100 AK vs possible straight and flush
 

I usually regret 3 betting this turn.

Re: 50/100 AK vs possible straight and flush
 

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I usually regret 3 betting this turn.

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Really? You think he has the straight enough here for that to be wrong? Could you elaborate, seems to be counter to most of the advice in the thread.

Re: 50/100 AK vs possible straight and flush
 

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I usually regret 3 betting this turn.

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Really? You think he has the straight enough here for that to be wrong? Could you elaborate, seems to be counter to most of the advice in the thread.

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If I had AQ and the board was AQJ it would be different. But because AK is the hand people tend to mentally assign to preflop raisers. Consequently, in my experience I'm frequently losing when I have AK and get raised on the turn on the AKxx board.

Re: 50/100 AK vs possible straight and flush
 

Call the turn and donk a non-J,T river? Maybe we shouldn't donk diamonds on the river though.

This is just a thought. I personally think that the turn should be a 3-bet.

Re: 50/100 AK vs possible straight and flush
 

I can't see anything other than a 3 bet on this turn and am surprised there is actually debate about this. Unless he's a donk or a maniac he won't cap this turn without JT or a set.

If you raised preflop and 3 bet on a AQ2 flop and bet again on a K turn it takes a hell of a player (or a donk) to cap it when you 3 bet with less than JT or a set.

IF he caps the turn, in theory it would be shouldn't be that difficult a fold (I'd still probably call though even if all signs point not too, I'm not quite that player yet 90% of the time).

if your betting indicates AK and he knows it and still caps the turn knowing you won't fold AK or AQ (this being limit and assured of a calldown). I seriously think you can 3 bet this and if he caps it fold if you don't fill up.

Re: 50/100 AK vs possible straight and flush
 

how about a river raise since we missed on the turn. i can't put our opponent in a flush draw on the turn since he raised indicating a good hand. he also raised the flop indicating either he had a draw or a pair. the action on the river can be like a value-bluff raise. the pot on the river is pretty big and the flush scare card came through on the river, we can use that to represent the flush. only made hands will raise here. we might even force a fold from a set of dueces. you have top two anyway, you can win/lose, if you lose it's only 1bb more.

I think this is another way to extract more money from your opponent if you missed on the turn, only a made hand will raise you on the river with this flop.

Re: 50/100 AK vs possible straight and flush
 

Is TJ really a common cold calling hand in the CO from an UTG raise in a 10-handed game? Especially from someone who "seems tight?" AA, KK, QQ, and 22 are all unlikely as you didn't get 3-bet PF and 22 rarely calls 2 cold. I say this turn is a 3-bet and c/c the river if capped and you don't improve.

Re: 50/100 AK vs possible straight and flush
 

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Is TJ really a common cold calling hand in the CO from an UTG raise in a 10-handed game? Especially from someone who "seems tight?" AA, KK, QQ, and 22 are all unlikely as you didn't get 3-bet PF and 22 rarely calls 2 cold. I say this turn is a 3-bet and c/c the river if capped and you don't improve.

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Do you really think good players ever are the first cold caller of an utg raise? Once someone cold calls there, I can't put him on a hand because I would never cold call in that spot.

Re: 50/100 AK vs possible straight and flush
 

whats with no river bet?

Re: 50/100 AK vs possible straight and flush
 

Paluka - That seems like a pretty damn good reason to coldcall to me.

I agree with whoever said you should play cautiously because AK is a hand people tend to start from when you raise PF, so if they're popping you on an AKxx board they aren't doing it lightly.

Re: 50/100 AK vs possible straight and flush
 

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Is TJ really a common cold calling hand in the CO from an UTG raise in a 10-handed game? Especially from someone who "seems tight?" AA, KK, QQ, and 22 are all unlikely as you didn't get 3-bet PF and 22 rarely calls 2 cold. I say this turn is a 3-bet and c/c the river if capped and you don't improve.

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Do you really think good players ever are the first cold caller of an utg raise? Once someone cold calls there, I can't put him on a hand because I would never cold call in that spot.

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Yeah, if I knew the villain better I could read his hand better and make a better decision here. Also I could fold the river UI if I knew him better. But since he's basically unknown I want to go to showdown.

Let's say calling down is the base case. If I 3 bet and I'm ahead and he calls down, I win 1 more bet than if I just call down. If I'm behind and he caps, I then call down and lose 2 more bets (he will never cap when behind, and rarely he'll fold when he's behind, which leaves me only as well off as calling down to start with).

I now think the EV of the 3-betting vs calling down is pretty close. If you think he's much more likely to have KQ/AQ than JT or 22 then of course you favor the 3 bet, and vice-versa.

I should donk the diamond river though, since I get protection from a raise and I don't want it to get checked through.

Everyone's comments have been excellent, this hand is much more interesting than I first thought. When I played it I thought it was a clear call down, when I posted I thought it was a clear 3 bet, and now I think its pretty close. I asked another good player I know and he thinks its still a clear 3 bet.

Re: 50/100 AK vs possible straight and flush
 

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Paluka - That seems like a pretty damn good reason to coldcall to me.

I agree with whoever said you should play cautiously because AK is a hand people tend to start from when you raise PF, so if they're popping you on an AKxx board they aren't doing it lightly.

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You think cold calling is a good idea just because they can't put you on a hand?

Re: 50/100 AK vs possible straight and flush
 

Occaisonally yes. Confusing a good hand-reader is a plus that might push a 3bet to a coldcall occaisonally.

Re: 50/100 AK vs possible straight and flush
 

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Occaisonally yes. Confusing a good hand-reader is a plus that might push a 3bet to a coldcall occaisonally.

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Yes, I could see cold calling with a monster sometimes. But obviously this is another reason to not 3 bet this turn.

Re: 50/100 AK vs possible straight and flush
 

I aigree that 3betting the turn is bad.

Re: 50/100 AK vs possible straight and flush
 

because he was slowplaying AQ or made his hand KQ

Re: 50/100 AK vs possible straight and flush
 

Maybe you don't but tons of week players call cold with KQ,AQ and those are the hands I would expect him to have on the flop and then confirmed on the turn!
And who said he was good "seems tight" I recall.

Re: 50/100 AK vs possible straight and flush
 

I am so confused. Can you tell me how 3betting the turn is bad? You and Puluka claim getting raised on AKxx board is trouble and I agree but its AKQx(BIG DIFFERENCE).

Re: 50/100 AK vs possible straight and flush
 

If you agree that AKxx is trouble, then could you kindly spell out the difference of AKQx? Only two additional hands we beat, AQ and KQ, get added. QQ and JT now beat us. But beyond that the reason it's trouble remains. He knows we hit that board hard and the action lines up with us hitting the board hard. Why does he continue to not care?