($50 NL) How cheaply can you get away from this QQ in the bb?
 

Bodog $50 nl

This hand made me cringe. At what point would you dump this QQ? How do you play this?

Relevant stacks
utg $65
villain (on button)$140
hero (bb) $60

I just moved to the table about 30 minutes before, have not seen villain show down any hands or how he built up his stack.

Hero dealt QdQs in bb

PREFLOP
utg raises to $2, villain reraises to $5.25 on button, Hero calls and already hates it, utg folds.

FLOP (pot $11) 7d 3h 7s
Hero checks, villain bets $11, Hero...?

Preflop I think I have to call, it's much to weak to fold here and we are all deep enough to be calling for implied odds on hitting my set even if I know villain has AA or KK. Is my thinking right here?

On the flop, I think maybe I should have led out for half to 3/4 pot, but I didn't want to get just called and try to figure out where I'm at, so I want to see villains action first. When he pots it, I am fairly certain I am beat. Should I fold at this point? I feel my check was terrible because now I can't put in any raise without severely crippling my stack, I'm not comfortable pushing because I feel I am behind, and if he does come over the top of a raise I will be certain I am beat.

Any words of wisdom will be greatly appreciated, I just hated the spot I was in here.

Re: ($50 NL) How cheaply can you get away from this QQ in the bb?
 

reraise pot pf and they won't have odds to hit their sets on you. If they call check fold a non Qxx flop.

And you have to lead the flop if you don't reraise pf, villain can have almost any two cards.

Re: ($50 NL) How cheaply can you get away from this QQ in the bb?
 

Fallen (or anyone else),

If I reraise pot preflop to $17, I am putting almost a third of my stack in. You said if called, I should fold to any non Qxx flop. But, what is the play if...

(a) utg pushes all in for $65, villain folds?
(b) utg calls $17, villain pushes?
(c) utg folds, villain pushes?
(d) utg pushes, villain calls (putting us both all in)?

I think that I would have to fold in pretty much all of the above situations. Is this analysis correct in your opinion? I felt that if I reraised pot, the likelihood of any of the above happening would be quite high, and I didn't want to get shut out after putting in a third of my stack with the third best possible hand preflop. Anyway, that is my explanation for the flat call. Am I being to weak by folding when the above scenarios occur?

Re: ($50 NL) How cheaply can you get away from this QQ in the bb?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Fallen (or anyone else),

If I reraise pot preflop to $17, I am putting almost a third of my stack in. You said if called, I should fold to any non Qxx flop. But, what is the play if...

(a) utg pushes all in for $65, villain folds?
(b) utg calls $17, villain pushes?
(c) utg folds, villain pushes?
(d) utg pushes, villain calls (putting us both all in)?

I think that I would have to fold in pretty much all of the above situations. Is this analysis correct in your opinion? I felt that if I reraised pot, the likelihood of any of the above happening would be quite high, and I didn't want to get shut out after putting in a third of my stack with the third best possible hand preflop. Anyway, that is my explanation for the flat call. Am I being to weak by folding when the above scenarios occur?

[/ QUOTE ]

well, if one pushes you have to assume KK,AA, see your pot odds and do what you have to do

Re: ($50 NL) How cheaply can you get away from this QQ in the bb?
 

difficult spot with no reads. I'd lead that flop for $11...see what happens. Don't play at bodog so I don't know how donkish they are compared to party.

Re: ($50 NL) How cheaply can you get away from this QQ in the bb?
 

I don't like your call preflop. You say you called to hit a set...but I'm not sure that you have odds. You are calling about 10 BB and even when you flop a set..he can outdraw you, or be ahead on a KQx kind of flop (with KK) or he could get away from a AQx flop if he has KK, or maybe he doesnt lose his whole stack with an overpair vs a set.

If you have him beat preflop (ie he has JJ or AK) you are OOP for the hand and so might have to lay down the pest hand postflop.

So that said I think a raise or fold is best preflop. IMO, a raise is basically a bluff....you are 3-betting preflop OOP and comitting 1/3 of your stack, this is basically representing AA/KK to me, so if you play QQ this way, you might as well do the same with any PP down to 22. If he does indeed have AA/KK/JJ/AK, he's only folding JJ and maybe AK and continuing with the others, so for that reason I think raising is wrong. If you do raise to ~17 as suggested earlier, fold to any raise and if you get flat called, check/fold a non Qxx flop. Personally I think while folding preflop may seem weak, it is right in this situation.

As played, you should be leading flop for 2/3 pot and folding to a raise. If called, then c/f turn. As you have checked the flop, you have to fold to his pot bet.

Re: ($50 NL) How cheaply can you get away from this QQ in the bb?
 

dbitel,

Thanks for the post. You have outlined my thought process regarding the hand pretty well. I just really hated this QQ and it took me quite a while to decide to call. I couldn't make myself find a fold preflop, but hated being oop with that hand against that action. I don't know if I'm quite ready to be that disciplined to find this fold preflop yet. In regards to the call as playing for set value, I am basing this on the twofold assumption that (a) if my set hits it will be good, and (b) the standard $50 nl player will be willing to get it all in on a Q flop with an overpair. Neither of these are certain propositions. If I was unlucky enough to lose set over set with QQ then, well, that's why I have plenty of buyins in the bankroll.

Honestly, I feel fold is better than a raise to $17 oop. I hate the idea of putting a third of my chips in the pot then giving up on the pot. Given my line, I should have led the pot and folded to resistance or looked to check down if just called. As played, I check called the flop and puke folded tp a push on a blank on the turn, and villain kindly showed me his AA.

What do others think? Is it a better play to fold QQ to a raise and reraise with no reads than to raise the pot or am I just seeing monsters under the bed?

Re: ($50 NL) How cheaply can you get away from this QQ in the bb?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don't like your call preflop. You say you called to hit a set...but I'm not sure that you have odds. You are calling about 10 BB and even when you flop a set..he can outdraw you, or be ahead on a KQx kind of flop (with KK) or he could get away from a AQx flop if he has KK, or maybe he doesnt lose his whole stack with an overpair vs a set.

If you have him beat preflop (ie he has JJ or AK) you are OOP for the hand and so might have to lay down the pest hand postflop.

So that said I think a raise or fold is best preflop. IMO, a raise is basically a bluff....you are 3-betting preflop OOP and comitting 1/3 of your stack, this is basically representing AA/KK to me, so if you play QQ this way, you might as well do the same with any PP down to 22. If he does indeed have AA/KK/JJ/AK, he's only folding JJ and maybe AK and continuing with the others, so for that reason I think raising is wrong. If you do raise to ~17 as suggested earlier, fold to any raise and if you get flat called, check/fold a non Qxx flop. Personally I think while folding preflop may seem weak, it is right in this situation.

As played, you should be leading flop for 2/3 pot and folding to a raise. If called, then c/f turn. As you have checked the flop, you have to fold to his pot bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

reraising this pf is as much of a bluff as making a continuation bet on a flop with A high after raising pf.