What is a bad beat, really?
 

Definitional question about a term that is used ad nauseam in poker circles... I'm curious to know what precisely people mean when they call something a "bad beat"?

Is it a bad beat when any hand that is behind ends up ahead at the end of the hand due to a lucky draw?
OR does your opponent have to make an INCORRECT or BAD play and get lucky with a draw to beat you?


How about this hand?

You have A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
Opponent has A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
Flop comes A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. Turn is T [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. River is Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].

Bad beat?

Thanks.

Re: What is a bad beat, really?
 

Yeah, that's a bad beat that would win me a 7.5k jackpot at the local cardroom.

I think you understand that notion already. A hand that's a big favorite loses to the underdog; that's a bad beat. For example, KK vs QQ, a lot of preflop raising, and a Q flops, or hits on the turn or river. That's a bad beat.

Sometimes we use the term for emphasis when someone played unprofitably to hit their longshot draw against the favorite. For example, someone holding 22 calls a flop bet in a small pot and turns a set. Not only is that terrible play, but your buddy will turn to you and say, "Man, that's a bad beat!"

Re: What is a bad beat, really?
 

I feel it's a bad beat when the opponent has 2 or less outs to pick up the winning hand.

Re: What is a bad beat, really?
 

i would have to differentiate between a bad beat and just being plain unlucky -- a bad beat being worse. like say you go all in preflop with AA and your opponent calls with KK and he hits his set on the flop and wins. i would consider that just plain unlucky and not necessarily a bad beat because your opponent made an okay decision (albeit wrong--but he had no way of really knowing that) calling your all-in with KK. what i would consider a bad beat would be you all in preflop with AA and your opponent calling with 27o and hitting two pair on the flop and beating you.

i would say that a bad beat comes from a player who has no logical right to be in the pot to begin with or has no logical right to stay with the hand as long as he did. so based on the example you gave in your post i think that would be along the lines of just plain unlucky rather than bad beat.

Re: What is a bad beat, really?
 

Cheapsuit is absolutely right.
It's not a bad beat when a Full House loses to a STR8T Flush. That is just fabulous poker at work.

A bad beat is when you have an Ace-high flush, go all-in, your opponent knows you have the flush but decides to chase the str8t flush (with only 2 outs) and catches it on the river. Not that I am still steaming about it.....I'm so over it. Really.
(Motherfuc*er, how could he call that?! How ridiculous!)

Re: What is a bad beat, really?
 

Did I mention that he made his call on the turn?
He had one card to come and only 2 outs to hit it.
And he KNEW I had him beat up to that point.

(Shut up Mace, get over it!)

Re: What is a bad beat, really?
 

It's getting beat by a play that you legitimately had no reason to anticipate.

If you hold KK and go all in pre-flop, and get beat by a QQ w Q on the river, that's not a bad beat. Your opponent's play was not optimal but it was certainly foreseeable. The hand with the better chance got beat--that's just randomness and short-term divergence from the long-term probabilities, not a bad beat.

On the other hand, if you hold KK and the flop is x-x-x rainbow, and then your opponent completes a backdoor flush draw, that's a bad beat.

Re: What is a bad beat, really?
 

Respectfully disagree.

You're both getting too intellectual about this. A bad beat is just whatever we call a bad beat. If the casino calls it a "bad beat," then it's a bad beat. There are no essential properties that make something a bad beat.

The correct way to understand what bad beats are is to enumerate all of the different scenarios we call bad beats, and then to remark about how some have similarities and some do not.

Re: What is a bad beat, really?
 

I don't get it. You say a 2 outter (QQ hitting a Q) is not a bad beat, but perhaps a backdoor flush with an Ace is a bad beat? Do you realize that the second hand actually has more outs to beat KK?

Re: What is a bad beat, really?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don't get it. You say a 2 outter (QQ hitting a Q) is not a bad beat, but perhaps a backdoor flush with an Ace is a bad beat? Do you realize that the second hand actually has more outs to beat KK?

[/ QUOTE ]

The difference being that QQ played the hand reasonably whereas the other hand did not.

Don't you need to know odds and pot sizes before determining whether it's a bad beat? to determine whether the player shouldn't legitimately have been in the hand in the first place?

Re: What is a bad beat, really?
 

Bodhi I disagree with you on both counts.

True, looking for a precise technical definition of the term is ridiculous, but sometimes it's used incorrectly. When someone bitches about his kings getting beat by a set, crying "bad beat", he's wrong. He played his hand properly, he just got beat by the underdog. Crying "bad beat" shows he doesn't understand poker.

All in pre-flop, with KK, getting beat when a high pair makes a set: the best hand didn't hold up, that's all, nothing out of the ordinary.

On the other hand, holding KK, flop is x-x-x rainbow, going all in: No reason at all to anticipate opponent chasing a back door flush draw. Bad beat.

Re: What is a bad beat, really?
 

A bad beat is anytime you lose a hand [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]. To me the bad beat really amounts to a series of mistakes your opponent makes and then gets rewarded for it. As in, cold calling 3 bets with a 34o. Flop comes AJ5r, calling all bets on the flop, hitting a 6 on the turn, calling all again, hitting the 7 on the river and taking the pot away from the set of JJ's and AA's. It is not so much that it is a 'bad beat' as to what it does to my temperment if I am holding the Aces. It can send you on tilt very easily and that is what is truly a bad beat, anything that can set you on tilt, even for a little while. It is easy to tell yourself that the guy is a loser but it doesn't help matters when you are handing your 12BBs over to the moron. If you can get your zen past that, then there are no more bad beats.

Re: What is a bad beat, really?
 

How about when I went all in with pocket aces, get one caller (big stack) who calls with 7,2 off suite and picks up a running two pair?

Re: What is a bad beat, really?
 

I agree I think there is a difference between being unlucky and having a bad beat.

Re: What is a bad beat, really?
 

You can't blame somebody calling your all-in if they have pocket Q's and you have KK. You just got unlucky, not a bad beat just unluckiness.

Re: What is a bad beat, really?
 

A bad beat occurs when the guy wearing the party poker hat and sunglasses beats you at the $1/$2 no limit table at the Borgata.

Re: What is a bad beat, really?
 

Maybe you disagree with me because you've now specified NL whereas before you didn't specify.

Re: What is a bad beat, really?
 

A bad beat is when something bad happens to you that wasn't supposed to happen. Bad beats aren't always because of the cards.

Re: What is a bad beat, really?
 

There are no bad beats. Do you see why?

Regards,

T

Re: What is a bad beat, really?
 

[ QUOTE ]
KK vs QQ, a lot of preflop raising, and a Q flops, or hits on the turn or river. That's a bad beat.

[/ QUOTE ]

No its not.

Part of being a 'bad beat' has to do with the fact that the player who got lucky, made some terrible decision in the hand.

You cant fault someone for playing QQ preflop.

Re: What is a bad beat, really?
 

[ QUOTE ]
A bad beat is when something bad happens to you that wasn't supposed to happen. Bad beats aren't always because of the cards.

[/ QUOTE ]

So getting 86'd because a railtard said you stole five bucks from him is a bad beat?

Re: What is a bad beat, really?
 

Very simple definition: An unforeseeable result which couldn't have been avoided by better play.

Re: What is a bad beat, really?
 

Quit being philosophical about this. There are no essential properties of a bad beat, like "villain has to play his hand poorly..."