Ugly, indecisive TT hand
 

MP2 is 79/16/1.6 after 268 hands. Feel free to ignore his limp-cap. I pretty much did. (A big chunk of his preflop raises were limp-reraises.)

CO is 24/11/1 after 183 hands. CO hadn't been tangling with MP2 enough for me really to have a good idea what CO thought of MP2.


Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is BB with T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, MP2 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 caps</font>, CO calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (12.40 SB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 bets</font>, CO calls, Hero calls.

<font color="#0000FF">Once I saw the flop, I anticipated check-folding, but then CO just called MP2's flop bet, and I started thinking maybe he just had AJ/AT. So I decided to stick around. MP2 could easily have me beat with Q7s or something, though.</font>

Turn: (7.70 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 bets</font>, CO calls, Hero calls.

<font color="#0000FF">CO is still calling, and I'm feeling stubborn.</font>

River: (10.70 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 bets</font>, CO calls . . .

Well, so much for the AJ/AT idea. Do I overcall here?

Comments on previous streets would also be appreciated. I was lost during this one.

Re: Ugly, indecisive TT hand
 

I probably let this one go on the turn once CO calls MP2's bet a second time. This is a weird hand. I definitely don't overcall the river.

Re: Ugly, indecisive TT hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
This is a weird hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

MP2 is a weird player.

Here's another hand with basically the same cast (MP2 is UTG in this one):


Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
UTG calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG+2 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP2 calls, Hero calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (6 SB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, UTG+2 calls, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, SB calls, BB folds, UTG calls, UTG+2 calls, MP2 calls.

Turn: (10.50 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(5 players)</font>
SB checks, UTG checks, UTG+2 checks, MP2 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, SB calls, UTG calls, UTG+2 calls, MP2 folds.

River: (14.50 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, UTG checks, UTG+2 checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, SB folds, <font color="#CC3333">UTG raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG+2 3-bets</font>, Hero folds, UTG folds.

Final Pot: 20.50 BB

That hand generated some discussion in the chat box.

Re: Ugly, indecisive TT hand
 

Hand One
Calling the river obviously is out of the question. Its a bizarre hand but I cant see CO calling here with a hand you beat (especially considering his pre flop action) combined with the times the donkey doesnt have the king or queen here for calling to be profitable.

I am strongly leaning towards folding the flop, if you dont fold the flop, you have to stick it through to the river ((as if you can call this flop I dont see how you can find a fold unless you see running hearts)which I just hate. The more I look at this, folding the flop is the best decision. A lot of the time I feel CO is trapping here and raising the turn.

Hand Two
Looks pretty standard from your point of view, I am guessing someone hit their straight with 62o?

Re: Ugly, indecisive TT hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
Hand Two
Looks pretty standard from your point of view, I am guessing someone hit their straight with 62o?

[/ QUOTE ]

My guess is that UTG+2 had 7 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].

In any case, he did say he had a straight in the chat box. (Someone else at the table was amazed that the hand didn't go to showdown and started asking about it.)

Re: Ugly, indecisive TT hand
 

Hand 1. I fold the flop.
Hand 2. [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

Re: Ugly, indecisive TT hand
 

I would have a hard time playing this hand after the turn. Just because mp2 is a nut doesnt mean he dont have a piece of that flop. And the other player is calling with a piece as well.

Unless your hoping they have 66-99.

Re: Ugly, indecisive TT hand
 

I don't like any street. With respect to PF, I might just have called, unless I thought MP2 was going to fold rather than call two more. However, I certainly won't fault you for three-betting there.

However, I'm folding the flop. There are two overcards to your pair, and you not only have MP2 betting but CO calling, despite the CO having to realize that you could be winding up to checkraise a flopped monster. I think that the odds are great that you are behind already.

Moreover, I'm definately folding this turn. Indeed, especially since the flush draw just hit, I find it difficult to believe that you could actually be ahead. Furthermore, if you are behind you are drawing to only one clean out...yuck.

I won't even comment on the river since there is no way I would have ever been in that situation.

Re: Ugly, indecisive TT hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
With respect to PF, I might just have called, unless I thought MP2 was going to fold rather than call two more. However, I certainly won't fault you for three-betting there.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmm. I don't know. I thought it was an easy 3-bet. I'm up against a super-loose limper and an LP raise from a tighter player (which could be an iso-raise). I'll usually have the best hand here, and my thinking was that I should 3-bet for value. (When MP2 limp-capped, I thought, "Cool. See you guys on the flop.")

[ QUOTE ]
However, I'm folding the flop. There are two overcards to your pair, and you not only have MP2 betting but CO calling, despite the CO having to realize that you could be winding up to checkraise a flopped monster. I think that the odds are great that you are behind already.

[/ QUOTE ]

When CO called, I put him on AT/AJ.

[ QUOTE ]
Moreover, I'm definately folding this turn. Indeed, especially since the flush draw just hit, I find it difficult to believe that you could actually be ahead. Furthermore, if you are behind you are drawing to only one clean out...yuck.

[/ QUOTE ]

When CO called again on the turn, I thought, "Yep. AT/AJ." (Some hand that contains a heart is also possible, and I guess something like 88 is as well, but I was thinking narrowly.) I wasn't giving anyone credit for a made flush, though.

I was more worried at this point about the LAG than I was about the CO. The LAG could easily have some crappy king or some crappy queen.

[ QUOTE ]
I won't even comment on the river since there is no way I would have ever been in that situation.

[/ QUOTE ]

Ordinarily I wouldn't be either, but I thought MP2's bets were basically information-free. And, on the flop and turn, I liked the information I was getting from CO (though I would have preferred for him to fold).

I really expected CO to fold on the river blank.

Re: Ugly, indecisive TT hand
 

I like the PF 3 bet. Flop and turn calls are stubborn like you said, and personally I am letting this go on the turn. I definatly don't overcall on the river.

As an alternate line perhaps, Im not sure I would take this line, but does anyone check raise this flop?

Re: Ugly, indecisive TT hand
 

I'm folding the flop here. Two overcards in a three-way pot is just to much, particularly as the board is also draw heavy, we're vulnerable to two overcards, and we don't have any meaningful redraws. Peeling one on the flop getting like 15-1 or whatever is at least in consideration, but we should realize that AJ is a possibility and so our outs are a little dirty. The T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] gives tons of redraws. Sometimes we'll have the best hand, the turn will check through, and we'll get to see a showdown, but that's not a huge probability. So I think I like folding the best.

Turn is definitely a fold if we get there.

Even though MP2 is crazy, that doesn't mean he can't (and won't) have a K or Q in his hand a lot of the time.

Results and thoughts
 

I folded on the river. I have some doubts now about this fold being best (maybe I'm being results-oriented), but in any case, I would have felt better about the hand if I had folded earlier, like many of you have recommended.

As it was, though, I endured the reverse-implied odds that I did for two streets and then threw my hand away just because CO's call meant, to me, that he didn't have AJ/AT after all. He could, however, still have a hand like 8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. A second-pair hand is also possible, but if CO had a queen, CO possibly would have raised with that on the flop or turn. (AQ is, after all, the most obvious hand for him to have if he's holding a queen.)

During the hand, I wasn't sure how much the preflop action did or didn't intimidate CO. (And he should have some respect for my 3-bet, even if he correctly disregarded MP2's limp-cap.) Given what CO had, I guess maybe it was a situation where he and I both put each other on a draw, but he got his river call in first. And he clearly had no respect for MP2's limp-cap.

Anyway, MP2 had J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] for the busted gutshot and jack-high on the river. CO had A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (it was hard to put him on that) and took the pot with a pair of fours.

Thanks for the responses.

A later hand
 

Here's a later encounter with the LAG where my stubbornness did pay off. But in this hand I was heads-up, and the draw I had on the turn helped get me to the river. And once I was on the river, the crying call seemed easy enough, against this guy, even though the board had gotten really ugly, for my hand:

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero caps</font>, SB calls.

Flop: (9 SB) J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
SB checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">SB caps</font>, Hero calls.

Turn: (8.50 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, Hero calls.

River: (10.50 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets</font>, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 12.50 BB

Results:
SB has 9h 5h (one pair, nines).
Hero has Js Ah (one pair, jacks).
Outcome: Hero wins 12.50 BB.

Re: Ugly, indecisive TT hand
 

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 1. I fold the flop.
Hand 2. [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Get away from this hand on the flop. There are 2 over cards which either one of them may have and there are a ton of overcrards out there that make you cry. Even seeing a 10 on either street does not make you feel that much better.

Re: Ugly, indecisive TT hand
 

ok, so you called the turn anticipating CO folding the river so you can call MP2's meaningless bet and scoop the pot. CO called on the river, so now you must fold your 3rd pair. I doubt CO will call with A-hi given the board.