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-   -   Et tu, Brute? (http://archives2.twoplustwo.com/showthread.php?t=356728)

MelK 10-13-2005 09:17 AM

Et tu, Brute?
 
Brutus, one of the conspirators and assassins of Julius Caesar has a bad reputation in history. But why? Wasn't he trying to save the Roman Empire from dictatorship? Had they succeeded in preserving the Senate as the dominant power, wouldn't Rome have been better off than with later Emperors such as Caligula, Nero, and others?

What do you think?

Saddlepoint 10-13-2005 09:20 AM

Re: Et tu, Brute?
 
Yeah that second poll's fair.

samjjones 10-13-2005 09:29 AM

Re: Et tu, Brute?
 
Caesar Augustus should win #2 in a landslide. Re: #1, the Senate had become too bloated and corrupt...IMO, Caesar was a good thing.

sexdrugsmoney 10-13-2005 09:41 AM

Re: Et tu, Brute?
 
Finally OOT is getting some class. [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

MelK 10-13-2005 09:46 AM

Re: Et tu, Brute?
 
[ QUOTE ]
Yeah that second poll's fair.

[/ QUOTE ]

You see how I get all the dumb people to vote for Commodus and then get an accurate poll among the rest?

Uhh...
I mean all the smart people vote for Commodus.

Hail Commodus!

10-13-2005 10:07 AM

Re: Et tu, Brute?
 
My name is Maximus Decimus Meridius, commander of the Armies of the North, General of the Felix Legions, loyal servant to the true emperor, Marcus Aurelius.

sexdrugsmoney 10-13-2005 11:22 AM

Re: Et tu, Brute?
 
</font><blockquote><font class="small">En respuesta a:</font><hr />
My name is Maximus Decimus Meridius, commander of the Armies of the North, General of the Felix Legions, loyal servant to the true emperor, Marcus Aurelius.

[/ QUOTE ]

Can I use the tú form with you? [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Mr_J 10-13-2005 11:24 AM

Re: Et tu, Brute?
 
Also, Julius Ceaser was never emperor.

sexdrugsmoney 10-13-2005 11:29 AM

Re: Et tu, Brute?
 
</font><blockquote><font class="small">En respuesta a:</font><hr />
Also, Julius Ceaser was never emperor.

[/ QUOTE ]

Did you know Julius Caesar was having a homosexual relationship with King Nicomedes?

Tell your friends. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

swede123 10-13-2005 12:12 PM

Re: Et tu, Brute?
 
[ QUOTE ]

Did you know Julius Caesar was having a homosexual relationship with King Nicomedes?


[/ QUOTE ]

Isn't that what Brokeback Mountain is about?

Swede

man 10-13-2005 12:17 PM

Re: Et tu, Brute?
 
I took a survey course on roman history freshman year just so that I could contribute to discussions like this. seriously, all I wanted to do was sound smart. but it's now clear to me that that class did nothing for me. I don't even remember most of the emporers on that list. where's my tacitus when I need it.

wasn't marcus aurelius one of the last good emporers? I voted for him but I clearly don't have any idea what's going on.

sexdrugsmoney 10-13-2005 12:34 PM

Re: Et tu, Brute?
 
</font><blockquote><font class="small">En respuesta a:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font class="small">En respuesta a:</font><hr />

Did you know Julius Caesar was having a homosexual relationship with King Nicomedes?


[/ QUOTE ]

Isn't that what Brokeback Mountain is about?

Swede

[/ QUOTE ]

Haven't seen it but unless this relationship with Nicomedes took place in 1963 in Wyoming, I'm guessing no. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

sexdrugsmoney 10-13-2005 12:35 PM

Re: Et tu, Brute?
 
</font><blockquote><font class="small">En respuesta a:</font><hr />
I took a survey course on roman history freshman year just so that I could contribute to discussions like this. seriously, all I wanted to do was sound smart. but it's now clear to me that that class did nothing for me. I don't even remember most of the emporers on that list. where's my tacitus when I need it.


[/ QUOTE ]

You have "Cicer0wned" yourself.

man 10-13-2005 12:42 PM

Re: Et tu, Brute?
 
[ QUOTE ]
You have "Cicer0wned" yourself.

[/ QUOTE ]
eu manus, canicula [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

(canicula actually means "little bitch," and it's the first word I got when I got when I searched for "sir." and it's so funny to me that there is a word for that that I had to use it.)

sexdrugsmoney 10-13-2005 12:44 PM

Re: Et tu, Brute?
 
</font><blockquote><font class="small">En respuesta a:</font><hr />
</font><blockquote><font class="small">En respuesta a:</font><hr />
You have "Cicer0wned" yourself.

[/ QUOTE ]
eu manus, canicula [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

(canicula actually means "little bitch," and it's the first word I got when I got when I searched for "sir." and it's so funny to me that there is a word for that that I had to use it.)

[/ QUOTE ]

Thankyou for your translation, unfortunately I only speak a little of the vulgar Latin variety known as Spanish, and not the Latin you "gods" of Rome speak amongst yourself. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

man 10-13-2005 12:50 PM

Re: Et tu, Brute?
 
it's ok. you can't all be gods. &lt;yawn&gt; I'm gonna go hurl lightning bolts at the plebeians.

(actually I've never even taken a course in latin [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img])

ScottyP431 10-13-2005 12:55 PM

Re: Et tu, Brute?
 
I think the tu form is a little to informal for the man whos trying to assasinate you

sexdrugsmoney 10-13-2005 11:37 PM

Re: Et tu, Brute?
 
</font><blockquote><font class="small">En respuesta a:</font><hr />
I think the tu form is a little to informal for the man whos trying to assasinate you

[/ QUOTE ]

"Y Usted Brute" [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

bholdr 10-13-2005 11:50 PM

Re: Et tu, Brute?
 
This question is WAY too complicated to be answered in the form of a poll, and not only because the qualitative factors are not clearly defined, but...

brutus: supposedly a roman comitted to the 'democratic' process that was taken for a ride by the power hungry cassius and company, duped into the belief that their actions was something other than a power grab by the rich elite.

Ceaser: roman leader that hads REFUSED an offering of a crown/dictatorship- thus the idea that he was killed to preserve democracy is a BS cover for the disposessed powerful aristocrats like the conspiritors that were being marginalized by J's growing influence...

Agustus (octavian): brilliant statesman and general, far, far better for rome than democracy, ceaser, brutus, M antony cassius, or any other potential leader. garuenteed rome's dominance for centuries. had degenerate children/descendants- too bad.

rome: never really a democracy anyway.

Hadrian, Trajen, constantine, etc: good emperors, garunteed that the latin/western tradition would dominate european power structures for centuries

Nero, calugia, tiberius, etc: bad emperors


and so on...

sexdrugsmoney 10-14-2005 12:00 AM

Re: Et tu, Brute?
 
</font><blockquote><font class="small">En respuesta a:</font><hr />
This question is WAY too complicated to be answered in the form of a poll, and not only because the qualitative factors are not clearly defined, but...

brutus: supposedly a roman comitted to the 'democratic' process that was taken for a ride by the power hungry cassius and company, duped into the belief that their actions was something other than a power grab by the rich elite.

Ceaser: roman leader that hads REFUSED an offering of a crown/dictatorship- thus the idea that he was killed to preserve democracy is a BS cover for the disposessed powerful aristocrats like the conspiritors that were being marginalized by J's growing influence...

Agustus (octavian): brilliant statesman and general, far, far better for rome than democracy, ceaser, brutus, M antony cassius, or any other potential leader. garuenteed rome's dominance for centuries. had degenerate children/descendants- too bad.

rome: never really a democracy anyway.

Hadrian, Trajen, constantine, etc: good emperors, garunteed that the latin/western tradition would dominate european power structures for centuries

Nero, calugia, tiberius, etc: bad emperors


and so on...

[/ QUOTE ]

Some people blame Constantine and his conversion to Christianity for the fall of the Roman Empire, what do you say bholdr?

ChipWrecked 10-14-2005 02:42 AM

Re: Et tu, Brute?
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I think the tu form is a little to informal for the man whos trying to assasinate you

[/ QUOTE ]

"Y Usted Brute" [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Where's my tip?

PoBoy321 10-14-2005 02:46 AM

Re: Et tu, Brute?
 
I voted Brutus/Aurelius. What I find most interesting about this poll, however, is that I'm a classics major and can't think of anything to say [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img].

El Barto 10-14-2005 02:55 AM

Re: Et tu, Brute?
 
How can you not vote for Hadrian? He like built the Great Wall of China.

[img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

PoBoy321 10-14-2005 02:58 AM

Re: Et tu, Brute?
 
Meh. Hadrian wasn't terribly involved in the daily affairs of the empire, spent nearly half of his reign outside of Italy and made a very concerted effort to Hellenize Rome and its provinces.

bholdr 10-14-2005 03:09 AM

Re: Et tu, Brute?
 
three things:

-the emperor Trajen was in power as rome reached it's territorial zenith... To the point of his conquests in eastern europe, aspiring roman leaders financed their rise to power through conquest. his successor, hadrian, actually gave up some territory in order to create more defensable borders. he realized that rome, due to mainly logistical and economic factors, couldn't continue to grow indefinitly... there was hardly anything else of value left to plunder... of course:

-the brutality of roman sport was, in part, designed by the rulers to keep the people of the city strong and conditioned to war and bloodshead, and those sports generally trailed off as and because christianity became more powerful... but, also,

-Ceaser, Octavian, Trajen, Hadrian and a couple others were gifted, brilliant generals, on a level with kublai kahn, tamerlane, cao cao, napolean (R.E Lee, too, imo) etc... maybe it was a lack of military talent, coupled with complacency and more advanced/skilled/numerous enemies that all came together to destroy the empier. nobody really knows, and though christianity may have played a part in the fall, imo it was definitly not the dominant factor.


just a thought: you wanna learn about an empire that's survived all of the last 2200 years, learn about china... by the time of ceaser, chinese generals had assembled armies numbering in the hundreds of thousands... china was greater than rome by almost any objective measure.

sexdrugsmoney 10-14-2005 05:54 AM

Re: Et tu, Brute?
 
</font><blockquote><font class="small">En respuesta a:</font><hr />
three things:

-the emperor Trajen was in power as rome reached it's territorial zenith... To the point of his conquests in eastern europe, aspiring roman leaders financed their rise to power through conquest. his successor, hadrian, actually gave up some territory in order to create more defensable borders. he realized that rome, due to mainly logistical and economic factors, couldn't continue to grow indefinitly... there was hardly anything else of value left to plunder... of course:

-the brutality of roman sport was, in part, designed by the rulers to keep the people of the city strong and conditioned to war and bloodshead, and those sports generally trailed off as and because christianity became more powerful... but, also,

-Ceaser, Octavian, Trajen, Hadrian and a couple others were gifted, brilliant generals, on a level with kublai kahn, tamerlane, cao cao, napolean (R.E Lee, too, imo) etc... maybe it was a lack of military talent, coupled with complacency and more advanced/skilled/numerous enemies that all came together to destroy the empier. nobody really knows, and though christianity may have played a part in the fall, imo it was definitly not the dominant factor.


just a thought: you wanna learn about an empire that's survived all of the last 2200 years, learn about china... by the time of ceaser, chinese generals had assembled armies numbering in the hundreds of thousands... china was greater than rome by almost any objective measure.

[/ QUOTE ]

Interesting stuff bholdr, I have Gibbon's "Decline and fall..." but I haven't had time to tackle it personally, as I have a book that apparently says Rome established a colony in western China, I believe it's called the black horse odyssey - once again, untackled.

Cheers,
SDM

diebitter 10-14-2005 07:49 AM

Re: Et tu, Brute?
 
You forgot Claudius. He was pretty darn good.


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