Big Multi-way Pots w/ Big Draws for me: What\'s your line? 3 Hands
 

All these hands occurred in the last few days, and I wasn't happy with the result (and possibly my play) in any of them. More results to come.



Hand #1:

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (6 max, 5 handed) converter

BB ($49.30)
Hero ($483.84)
MP ($150.89)
Button ($145.15)
SB ($151.85)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of $0.50.
Hero calls $1, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises to $5</font>, SB (poster) calls $4.50, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls $4.

Flop: ($16) K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets $15</font>, Hero...?



Hand #2:

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (6 max, 6 handed) converter

Button ($97.70)
SB ($107)
BB ($98.50)
UTG ($154.10)
Hero ($94.50)
CO ($113.25)

Preflop: Hero is MP with 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of $0.50.
UTG calls $1, Hero calls $1, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises to $4</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB (poster) calls $3.50, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG calls $3, Hero calls $3.

Flop: ($17) 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, UTG checks, Hero...?



Hand #3:

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ Hero (6 max, 6 handed) converter

MP ($92.50)
CO ($88.40)
Button ($122.45)
SB ($167.28)
Hero ($104.30)
UTG ($185.25)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of $0.50.
<font color="#CC3333">UTG raises to $7</font>, MP calls $7, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Button calls $7, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls $6.

Flop: ($28.50) 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
Hero...?

Re: Big Multi-way Pots w/ Big Draws for me: What\'s your line? 3 Hands
 

Hand #1 - Only hand where a read is not necessary. Fold the flop.

Hand #2 - This really depends on so many things. If CO is a constant late position raiser, I like to lead into him here. If he is a rock, I check and see what develops.

Hand #3 - Again, a read on UTG is mandatory. This was a 7xBB raise to open from UTG? I probably check.

Re: Big Multi-way Pots w/ Big Draws for me: What\'s your line? 3 Hands
 

[ QUOTE ]
All these hands occurred in the last few days, and I wasn't happy with the result (and possibly my play) in any of them. More results to come.



Hand #1:

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (6 max, 5 handed) converter

BB ($49.30)
Hero ($483.84)
MP ($150.89)
Button ($145.15)
SB ($151.85)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of $0.50.
Hero calls $1, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises to $5</font>, SB (poster) calls $4.50, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls $4.

Flop: ($16) K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets $15</font>, Hero...?



Hand #2:

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (6 max, 6 handed) converter

Button ($97.70)
SB ($107)
BB ($98.50)
UTG ($154.10)
Hero ($94.50)
CO ($113.25)

Preflop: Hero is MP with 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of $0.50.
UTG calls $1, Hero calls $1, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises to $4</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, SB (poster) calls $3.50, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, UTG calls $3, Hero calls $3.

Flop: ($17) 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
SB checks, UTG checks, Hero...?



Hand #3:

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ Hero (6 max, 6 handed) converter

MP ($92.50)
CO ($88.40)
Button ($122.45)
SB ($167.28)
Hero ($104.30)
UTG ($185.25)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. SB posts a blind of $0.50.
<font color="#CC3333">UTG raises to $7</font>, MP calls $7, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Button calls $7, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls $6.

Flop: ($28.50) 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
Hero...?

[/ QUOTE ]

I need reads in every single one of these hands in order to form a decent opinion.

Re: Big Multi-way Pots w/ Big Draws for me: What\'s your line? 3 Hands
 

1) Call
2) Pot it
3) Pot it

Re: Big Multi-way Pots w/ Big Draws for me: What\'s your line? 3 Hands
 

sometimes you don't have reads in a hand, but you still have to play it.

1 - i raise to maybe $45. My goal here is to fold the button and see a free river against the SB. SB leading into two opponents when he wasn't the aggressor pre flop means he has something, so i don't think you have a lot of fold equity, but you may be able to buy relatively cheap turn and river cards against him and this is the way to do it.

2 - If the pot was smaller i might check behind, but it's large enough that you're happy with taking it down right now. $14 (or whatever your normal bet size is) here.

3 - This is an opportunity to get yourself in a coin flip situation with a lot of dead money. Check, watch UTG bet and MP or button call/raise, then shove all your chips in. I don't mind not being ahead here because of all the dead money.


edit - i'm not in love with you even seeing a flop with #1 and #3, #2 isn't bad

Re: Big Multi-way Pots w/ Big Draws for me: What\'s your line? 3 Hands
 

Hand 3 is the only strong draw.

hand 1 is bottom pair and 9 high flush draw... any 2 pair you hit 1 and 2... you have weak flush draws and gutshot draws... possible straight, any 2 pair you hit might be counterfeited. FOLD

hand 2- you have a weak flush draw and a draw to a non-nut gut-shot straight. If you feel you have any chance of taking down the flop now, bet. Otherwise, take your hopefully free card.

hand 3... I like. top pair, mediocre kicker and decent flush draw. Either checkraise or leadout.

Re: Big Multi-way Pots w/ Big Draws for me: What\'s your line? 3 Hands
 

Hand 1: SB is pretty donktastic (results show this too), I have no idea what he has, but I'm really not that concerned with him. Button is a good player.

I called SB's bet, and Button raised to $55, SB calls, action on me again.

Hand 2: UTG I thought highly of before this hand, afterwards my opinion of him dropped significantly, but either way he's fairly tight/aggressive. SB is good and CO is terrible (preflop raiser in this hand), he'll raise like this way too often with crap. This hand created alot of controversy at this table afterwards.

Hand 3: UTG is retarded, raising large preflop very often, no one has respect for his preflop raises (that's why I'm in this hand w/ a 7xBB raise). Button is solid. I bet 2/3 of the pot ($19 into $29), UTG folds, Button pushes for $115 now what?

Re: Big Multi-way Pots w/ Big Draws for me: What\'s your line? 3 Hands
 

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 3 is the only strong draw.

hand 1 is bottom pair and 9 high flush draw... any 2 pair you hit 1 and 2... you have weak flush draws and gutshot draws... possible straight, any 2 pair you hit might be counterfeited. FOLD

hand 2- you have a weak flush draw and a draw to a non-nut gut-shot straight. If you feel you have any chance of taking down the flop now, bet. Otherwise, take your hopefully free card.

hand 3... I like. top pair, mediocre kicker and decent flush draw. Either checkraise or leadout.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good post. I like these options. The problem here is I didn't have big enough draws IMO, if they were all big I'd have no problem playing this as I did (simply getting all the money in asap on the flop is my strategy w/ a checkraise or even an open-push in some situations). Hand 3 where I'm on the most solid ground, I get raised to $115 after my 2/3 pot bet, I imagine I have no choice but to call here.

Re: Big Multi-way Pots w/ Big Draws for me: What\'s your line? 3 Hands
 

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 1: SB is pretty donktastic (results show this too), I have no idea what he has, but I'm really not that concerned with him. Button is a good player.


[/ QUOTE ]

Just out of curiousity, what does "pretty donktastic" mean exactly? Does it mean that he'll only show aggression when he hits a flop hard while playing passively and calling down with non-nut draws and weak made hands? If this is the case then you should probably be folding here as you are sandwiched between somebody who is "pretty donktastic" but just got really aggressive (which seems to be out of character unless by "pretty donktastic" you mean LAG) and a button whose play you respect.

Re: Big Multi-way Pots w/ Big Draws for me: What\'s your line? 3 Hands
 

I would fold the 89[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] or at best call and see what happens. Raise is pretty piss poor IMO. I would lead for pot on the other two, unless you think CO will definitely bet.

Re: Big Multi-way Pots w/ Big Draws for me: What\'s your line? 3 Hands
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Hand 1: SB is pretty donktastic (results show this too), I have no idea what he has, but I'm really not that concerned with him. Button is a good player.


[/ QUOTE ]

Just out of curiousity, what does "pretty donktastic" mean exactly? Does it mean that he'll only show aggression when he hits a flop hard while playing passively and calling down with non-nut draws and weak made hands? If this is the case then you should probably be folding here as you are sandwiched between somebody who is "pretty donktastic" but just got really aggressive (which seems to be out of character unless by "pretty donktastic" you mean LAG) and a button whose play you respect.

[/ QUOTE ]

He's a bad LAG - not so much aggressive, but just.. bad moves. he showed down AA at the end of this hand, yeah - that's what I mean by donktastic.

Re: Big Multi-way Pots w/ Big Draws for me: What\'s your line? 3 Hands
 

[ QUOTE ]
I would fold the 89[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] or at best call and see what happens. Raise is pretty piss poor IMO. I would lead for pot on the other two, unless you think CO will definitely bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't raise initially. I called, button raised, SB called, action on me again.

Re: Big Multi-way Pots w/ Big Draws for me: What\'s your line? 3 Hands
 

Fold all 3 out of position to the preflop raiser.

Short of that, I'd say:

Hand 1: Raise to $50, fold to a push from either player unless the preflop raiser pushes and the UTG calls. Then you might as well play a 3-way huge pot with your draw. The problem here is that UTG either has a set/two-pair or he's semi-bluffing with a higher draw. He might even have JT, in which case you only have flush outs.

Hand 2: Bet $15 and hope to take it down. If you get a caller and checked to you on the turn, then take a free card. Bad luck, though, if you get a chaser with a higher flush draw.

Hand 3: Bet $30 and be willing to go all the way with it. Here's your hand vs a AA or AQ

Holdem Hi: 990 enumerated boards containing 6s 3s Qh
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Qs Js 493 49.80 497 50.20 0 0.00 0.498
Ad Ah 497 50.20 493 49.80 0 0.00 0.502

And

Holdem Hi: 990 enumerated boards containing 6s 3s Qh
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Qs Js 453 45.76 525 53.03 12 1.21 0.464
Qc Ad 525 53.03 453 45.76 12 1.21 0.536

You're a little worse off if villain has a single big spade.

Your also way behind a set, if MP has 66 or 33.

Holdem Hi: 990 enumerated boards containing 6s 3s Qh
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Qs Js 298 30.10 692 69.90 0 0.00 0.301
3c 3d 692 69.90 298 30.10 0 0.00 0.699

A big pot 3-way might be AsAx, a set of 6s and you:

cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Qs Js 224 24.81 679 75.19 0 0.00 0.248
3d 3h 583 64.56 320 35.44 0 0.00 0.646
As Ac 96 10.63 807 89.37 0 0.00 0.106

Here you have a 3:1 shot.

Re: Big Multi-way Pots w/ Big Draws for me: What\'s your line? 3 Hands
 

[ QUOTE ]
Fold all 3 out of position to the preflop raiser.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm gonna play suited connectors one to the right of the preflop raiser in raised multi-way pots all day long. IMO this is definitely in position, as 90% of pots are checked to raiser, who very often bets, leaving me last to act on the flop (which is generally the only street that matters in multi-way raised pots given 100bb stack sizes).

I'm willing to play many hands against my opponents at these limits in any position simply because I feel I can outplay them enough to be very profitable (if there is a dangerous enough player at the table for me to fear him, I'll play drastically different).

The rest of your post makes alot of sense, good stuff, thanks.

BTW - Hand #3: I bet $19 into $29, button goes all-in with a set of 6s, I call &amp; fail to improve. I'm not that unhappy with this (risk averse I am not), but I suppose a full pot sized bet would have set me up a bit better odds wise. My move probably gave me an escape hatch out of this hand which I didn't take - folding here to a good player's push could be the best play.

Re: Big Multi-way Pots w/ Big Draws for me: What\'s your line? 3 Hands
 

[ QUOTE ]

I'm willing to play many hands against my opponents at these limits in any position simply because I feel I can outplay them enough to be very profitable .

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a huge leak. They may be terrible and you may be great, but calling preflop raises with worse hands hurts your EV badly. There's no need for it unless your loan shark wants his money in the next five minutes. Pick a better spot.

Re: Big Multi-way Pots w/ Big Draws for me: What\'s your line? 3 Hands
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

I'm willing to play many hands against my opponents at these limits in any position simply because I feel I can outplay them enough to be very profitable .

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a huge leak. They may be terrible and you may be great, but calling preflop raises with worse hands hurts your EV badly. There's no need for it unless your loan shark wants his money in the next five minutes. Pick a better spot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Easily dominated hands like AJ/QK/KJ/QJ - sure, calling raises with these is usually a losing venture (yes I know one of these hands is QJs) - but small to medium suited connectors and small-medium pocket pairs are hands I'll play against a ton of player's preflop raises, especially in multi-way pots. If this is a leak then the 275k hands in my PT database must be a fluke - according to poker patterns I'm seriously profitable in any raised pot situation where I see the flop.