Specific preflop plays
 

I see a lot of incongruity among posts and posters on how these are played.

Assume that one of the limpers is a loose but somewhat decent player who plays well postflop. Any other limpers are loose passive and bad. Also assume blinds are loose and that BB will call a raise approx. 75% of the time to see a flop.

Re: Specific preflop plays
 

OK, who is folding ATo on the button with three limpers? 'Splain yourself.

Re: Specific preflop plays
 

I really hate KTo. Can somebody convince me to play this?

Re: Specific preflop plays
 

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I really hate KTo. Can somebody convince me to play this?

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Loose passive limpers usually have worse hands than us. We have a good shot at making top pair. Don't play it if your not comfortable with the post-flop play, and dealing with possible domination.

Don\'t hate-evaluate
 

Generic hatred of KTo? You made no mention of your position or who you are playing against. I find KTo to be very playable against typical LAP tables, particularly from later positions. Since I play live, I do not have poker stats to back my feel, but I would play it all night to see the flop. OF course, after the flop, there could be lots of reasons to fold, but I think seeing the flop with those cards will be EV+ against all but Rock or TAG dominated tables.

Re: Specific preflop plays
 

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I really hate KTo. Can somebody convince me to play this?

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Sure, if you enjoy the aggravation of burning up chips when you hit against the passive limper who doesn't raise with A 10, KJ and KQ. Miniscule ev at best- not worth getting into trouble over IMO.

Re: Don\'t hate-evaluate
 

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You made no mention of your position or who you are playing against.

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Assume that one of the limpers is a loose but somewhat decent player who plays well postflop. Any other limpers are loose passive and bad. Also assume blinds are loose and that BB will call a raise approx. 75% of the time to see a flop.
...
KTo in MP3 after 2 limpers.
KTo in MP3 after 3 limpers.

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It was actually the mention of the one solid postflop player that changed my call to a fold.

Re: Specific preflop plays
 

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Miniscule ev at best- not worth getting into trouble over IMO.

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If you try to play this in MP, I'd add it's -EV if/when it gets raised behind you.

Re: Don\'t hate-evaluate
 

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You made no mention of your position or who you are playing against.

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Assume that one of the limpers is a loose but somewhat decent player who plays well postflop. Any other limpers are loose passive and bad. Also assume blinds are loose and that BB will call a raise approx. 75% of the time to see a flop.
...
KTo in MP3 after 2 limpers.
KTo in MP3 after 3 limpers.

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It was actually the mention of the one solid postflop player that changed my call to a fold.

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I interpreted the read differently. "A loose but somewhat decent player". I think i'm still ahead of his range, and playing better post-flop.

Some information is missing here. Who limped first, what position did they limp from?

Put the "loose but decent" player UTG limping in first, and I will fold KTo. If he's limping in MP behind a fish, then I call.

Re: Don\'t hate-evaluate
 

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Put the "loose but decent" player UTG limping in first, and I will fold KTo. If he's limping in MP behind a fish, then I call.

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I could agree with this, but I still probably don't do it unless I'm feeling good.

Re: Specific preflop plays
 

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I really hate KTo. Can somebody convince me to play this?

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Sure, if you enjoy the aggravation of burning up chips when you hit against the passive limper who doesn't raise with A 10, KJ and KQ. Miniscule ev at best- not worth getting into trouble over IMO.

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How about when we hit vs dominated hands like JT/QT/K9s, which are more likely to have been limped in than AT and KQ.

Re: Specific preflop plays
 

Here's a question: Take the same instance of the KT examples but make it KTs.

Is this a raise in both situations?

Re: Don\'t hate-evaluate
 

I apologize that the original post was a little bit vague, as I had intended to include necessary preflop information. The intention was supposed to be that the loose-bad player was limping in EP while the loose/decent player was in MP. The loose/decent player would have a greater range of limping hands, but will generally play them well postflop.

Re: Specific preflop plays
 

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Here's a question: Take the same instance of the KT examples but make it KTs.

Is this a raise in both situations?

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This is probably right on the cutoff as well. I'd probably raise it with 3 limpers with KTs, limp with only 2.

Re: Specific preflop plays
 

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Here's a question: Take the same instance of the KT examples but make it KTs.

Is this a raise in both situations?

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yes

Re: Specific preflop plays
 

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Here's a question: Take the same instance of the KT examples but make it KTs.

Is this a raise in both situations?

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With salivating enthusiasm.

Re: Specific preflop plays
 

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I really hate KTo. Can somebody convince me to play this?

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Sure, if you enjoy the aggravation of burning up chips when you hit against the passive limper who doesn't raise with A 10, KJ and KQ. Miniscule ev at best- not worth getting into trouble over IMO.

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How about when we hit vs dominated hands like JT/QT/K9s, which are more likely to have been limped in than AT and KQ.

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Point taken. The personal comfort level is what I was getting at. It would be nice to see some big databases chime in.

Re: Specific preflop plays
 

If there was some chance of getting the blinds out I would raise AT. If there isn't... MAYBE I'd still raise with 2 limpers.

I am not playing KT at all in this situation.

Re: Specific preflop plays
 

The only item that really surprises me in these results is that people are more willing to play KTo, a hand that doesn't play well multiway, when there are 3 limpers instead of 2. Is this because the additional player is poor or because you (the people who called with 3 but not 2 limpers) like this hand against more players?

Re: Specific preflop plays
 

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The only item that really surprises me in these results is that people are more willing to play KTo, a hand that doesn't play well multiway, when there are 3 limpers instead of 2. Is this because the additional player is poor or because you (the people who called with 3 but not 2 limpers) like this hand against more players?

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According to SSHE, top pair hands benefit more from dead money than they lose to the pot being multiway.

Re: Specific preflop plays
 

So I don't fold a single one of these hands preflop and thought it is time for a blast from the past for all you tighties on here:

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Hi, all. This is a public service announcement intended mainly for players in the Shorthanded and Small Stakes forums. Most of the folks in the Mid/High forum are exempt. I don't know about the Microlimits forum since I don't read it regularly, but I wouldn't be surprised if it applied to many of the posters there too.

You're playing too tight before the flop. You should not be putting money in just 15% of the time in a 10-handed game. You sure as bloody hell should not be putting in money just 19% of the time in 6-handed game. You should be defending your blinds more. You should be stealing more. You shouldn't be looking for excuses to fold your good hands before the flop; you should be looking for excuses to play them. I find myself saying this in response to more and more hand posts so I'm posting this in order to save myself some time in the future.

I don't know whether this is some sort of trend or not, or whether it's always been going on and I just haven't noticed it as much. In any event, I think it's caused by some combination of three things:

1) The Ray Zee factor. Sadly, I can't seem to find Ray Zee's seminal essay on the evolution of a poker player. But its main point is that a lot of developing players go through a phase in which they play too tight. This is only natural, since the primary sin of most bad poker players is to play too loose. And, indeed, playing too loose is usually going to be a lot more harmful to you than playing too tight. But playing too tight is still going to cost you a lot of value, especially against poor opposition whom you can outplay after the flop. I estimated in a recent post in the Mid/High forum that I've made about $6,500 in the past month from playing hands that an overtight player might fold. This translates to about 0.60 BB/100 given the limits and the number of hands that I'm playing. I hope you don't think this that amount of profit is trivial.

I also hope you don't think that this is a gross overestimate. While I've been running pretty well, it's easy to see how these numbers are well within the realm of possibility. If you're playing about 15% of your hands before the flop when you should be playing about 20%, that means that you're folding 5 hands per 100 that you should be playing. How much profit is that costing you? A good educated guesstimate is between .10 and .15 BB per additional hand folded. At that rate, five incorrect folds per one hundred result in a sacrifice of between .50 and .75 BB/100 in your earn rate.

Disclaimer: Ray Zee also notes that the overtight phase is usually proceeded by a loose aggressive phase. I have been through my loose aggressive phase and both me and my bankroll have survived it. In fact, it was pretty fun.

2) The multitabling factor. Let's face it: multitabling online poker games is a very good way to make money. I four-table, and should be adding a fifth table soon. A lot of people on here manage to play six or eight or even more tables at once, and many of them play them very well.

It is natural when you're multitabling to play somewhat fewer hands. It may even be +EV. If I can make a couple of cents by defending my blind with 76o when I'm fully attending to it, but I see that I've just gotten AA on my 30/60 table, I'm probably doing both of the hands justice by mucking the loose blind defense.

However, I think some of you are overcompensating. Your multitabling and making pretty good money doing it by being a rock-peddler, and you don't see much reason to change. But you're not merely sacrificing *small* EV plays in order to maintain your attention span and your sanity; you're probably sacrificing some fairly large EV plays as well. What's worse, being a rock-peddler may preclude you from future profits by preventing you developing a sense for how to play your more marginal sorts of hands as well as you could.

For what it's worth, I was a lot more eager to move up in limits than to move up in the number of tables that I was playing, and I think this made leaps and bounds worth of difference in the rate at which my game improved.

3) The Ed Miller factor. There seems to be an inverse relationship between weak-tight play and Ed Miller strategy posts. Ed isn't posting as much these days. Ergo...

-Nate

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