Tell?
 

When playing Omaha live, I will often arrange my hole cards in a manner to help organize my board reading. I do this for every hand. Is this a mistake?

Re: Tell?
 

Do you arrange them face up on the table? That would be a tell.

Re: Tell?
 

You should be memorizing your cards and not looking back. You should know what you have.

I forgot who said, "You can tell how good an Omaha player is by how many times he has to look back at his hole cards during the hand."

If you have to look back, you will get outplayed at the higher limits. Memorize them, then don't look again.

Felicia [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Tell?
 

Quite Possibly.

Growing up I used to play a game with my Grandmother we called "Ace is wild". In short, I knew my Grandmother held all her "wild cards" on the left of the hand and her junk cards on the right of her hand. I knew once she started moving cards from the left, inside other cards she was close to going out. Similiarly, when she stopped discarding cards from the immediate right of her hand, all cards were working and she was also close to going out. If she was close to going out and I wasn't, I'd start discarding my high cards which were counted against me at the end of the hand if i didn't win. This little tell got me quite a few bowls of Ice Cream [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Back to Omaha, I don't know what you do but chances are good if you do it every hand people may pick up on something. Maybe simple like "He's going for high, or he's going for low". So I would defintitely try to work past it before you move off the lowest stakes.

Re: Tell?
 

What stakes are you playing? I highly doubt that at low/mid-level stakes anyone is looking for a tell. They are too busy looking at their own cards and trying to figure out whether they should call a pfr with 2-4-J-K off.

Re: Tell?
 

Just don't count out straights on your fingers.



I've seen in before in a b&m. It's hilarious.

Re: Tell?
 

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When playing Omaha live, I will often arrange my hole cards in a manner to help organize my board reading. I do this for every hand. Is this a mistake?

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McGuw - There's an old bridge saying: "One peek is worth two finesses."

Assuming you only sort once, rather than after the flop, then again after the turn or river, no one could probably determine what cards you held or even which way you were going (high, low, or both) by watching the way you sort the cards in your hand.

But if you lift your cards off the table and are not guarding carefully to make certain you don't inadvertently flash your cards while you arrage them, maybe in the act of moving a card, or just holding them high enough off the table to be able to move them around, you enable an opponent to see your hand, or even a card in your hand.

You're not unique in arranging the cards in your hand. I've sat next to a card arrangers. Often they inadvertently flash some or all of their cards.

Buzz

Re: Tell?
 

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Do you arrange them face up on the table? That would be a tell.

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nh

Re: Tell?
 

Exactly. You should play Omaha just like you play Holdem in respect to looking at your cards. Peak at the corner while covering them, memorize them, protect them. How hard is it to remember 4 cards, dude?

Re: Tell?
 

Thanks everyone for your replies. I play the lowest stakes I can find, either 3-6 or 4-8. I'm new to Omaha and Omaha H/L, but have done okay so far. Early on I made some fairly embarrassing mistakes misreading the board, but have gotten much better (No mistakes in months). I know I should memorize my cards, but for whatever reason I often misassociate suits with numbers. I've found that by placing my cards in numerical order, I can check cards quickly to make sure that I have what I think I have. I hope that no one else is able to see my cards when I check them, but that is something I should think about. Anyone have any good memory tricks?

Re: Tell?
 

Out of curiousity, do good chinese poker or gin rummy players organize their hands, or leave them as they're drawn?

Re: Tell?
 

I'm mildly dyslexic, so you can do it easier than I can. On the other hand, I can count outs insanely quickly and accurately.

Re: Tell?
 

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Exactly. You should play Omaha just like you play Holdem in respect to looking at your cards. Peak at the corner while covering them, memorize them, protect them. How hard is it to remember 4 cards, dude?

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To come to the OP's defense, I have been playing Omaha live for longer than I care to remember, and I still have trouble remembering my cards sometimes. 4 cards is a lot different than 2 cards, particularly in a high low game. I look at my cards when they are dealt to me, and then look again after the flop, when just about everyone else at the table are looking at theirs, for every hand (not looking when I have a "memorable", i.e., good, hand could easily be a tell). But my feeling is that if I conceal them appropriately, I could look at them the whole time without anyone being able to see them.

Re: Tell?
 

Instead of trying to memorize what you have you should be thinking about what you NEED.

Example you hold A2KQ, with the Ace suited in hearts. You look at your cards and don't need to look at them again becasue you are thinking I need low cards, Hearts or Broadway cards.

Another example:
You hold 569J, you look at your cards and should be thinking, How the hell did I get in this hand?

Be thinking about what you need, not simply what you have. If you need to look back to check or be sure I don't think it's hurting you.

Re: Tell?
 

In Chinese I've seen everyone arrange their hands. I think that it can almost be played by rote. Maybe 999 times out of 1000 hands it wouldn't make a difference. There are times when knowing how an opponent sets his hand will make a difference, but that is more of a general knowledge of opposition, rather than watching him set his hand.

In Gin, I think the difference between "good" and "great" has much more disparity than in Poker or Chinese. While I haven't seen "great" players playing Gin, I have heard stories. Stories of almost instant card memorization and not looking back until one is knocking or declaring Gin. Scary.

I highly take advantage of the looky-loo's playing live O8. I don't think they have any idea how much they are giving away.

I also do the reverse tell sometimes if I'm in wise company and know I'm being watched. It only works the first time, but sometimes that is all it takes, especially in a final table tourney situation.

Felicia [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Tell?
 

Having dyslexia might make this much harder. I completely understand your difficulty, because while I was doing chemo, I noticed sometimes the L's in words were backwards. At first I thought someone had made a mistake on the site I was reading, but then I noticed it again and again. It especially occurred in words where the L was in the middle, and the word could almost be completely flipped and remain the same. I thought I'd lost my mind. But thankfully it went away.

Anyway, the way I learned to memorize cards was from the top rank down in high games, bottom rank up in split or low.

So in O8, this is how I do it. I peek at each card as I receive it (left corner only, very quickly). I say them in order of rank (ace always low), like this: A24J. I repeat them in my head until they are memorized.

If anything is suited, I say the suit after I say the ranks. So like my A24J hand. If the ace was suited, I'd say: A24J, ace spades. I don't bother with the suited side card unless it could make a straight flush (or blocks one).

If I'm double suited, I'll say: A24J, ace spades, jack hearts.

If I'm rainbow, I'll add nothing at the end. If I have three of one suit, I'll say: A24J, ace...three spades.

I have tried looking and memorizing after watching everyone else looks, as I would in HE, but found that I get little from them during the deal, while I get a much greater advantage having them memorized early, then watching my opponents during the actual play of the hand.

Chanting my hand in my head during the deal is easy and takes very little time. I hope this helps.

Felicia [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Tell?
 

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Do you arrange them face up on the table? That would be a tell.

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If you look close, you can see my lips silently mouthing the suits and ranks of my cards.

-g

Re: Tell?
 

But if you are looking at your cards when the flop hits, you can't see how other players are reacting to the flop, and you miss tells from others, whether you give one off yourself or not.

Re: Tell?
 

Yes it is a problem.

You should not be picking your cards off the table. Players on either side of you may get a peak at your cards.

The fact that your cards are in numerical order will not give away much if you do it every hand. If you are going to rearrange your cards, you will need to do it even for hands you are going to fold preflop. Otherwise it is a big tell.

It would be better to just memorize your hand without rearranging the cards. Then do not look back at your cards during the hand. Someone who keeps checking their cards is letting everyone else at the table know that they are not a very experienced player and possibly what cards they hold.

Memorizing Cards
 

Over in the Stud forum, in the FAQ section you will see a long list of suggestions about posting to that group.

As you can imagine, they have had more than a few people ask about memorizing all those cards.

In there you will find two links (I believe they are "Post 1" and "Post 2".)

They have listed 10 ways to improve your memory of the cards.

Take a look.

Dave

Re: Tell?
 

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But if you are looking at your cards when the flop hits, you can't see how other players are reacting to the flop, and you miss tells from others, whether you give one off yourself or not.

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At 5-10 and 10-20, I am wasting my time looking for tells.

Re: Tell?
 

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At 5-10 and 10-20, I am wasting my time looking for tells.

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Not at all, you should be able to pick up loads of tells at those levels.

Re: Tell?
 

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At 5-10 and 10-20, I am wasting my time looking for tells.

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Not at all, you should be able to pick up loads of tells at those levels.

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If you value tells at this level over identifying the people at the table who have no idea what they are doing, then in my opinion your priorities are out of order.

Re: Tell?
 

Niss - Mostly I don't pick up tells by watching people when they look at their own cards for the first time, or when they see any of the board cards for the first time - but every once in a while I'll see a tell. It's very subtle when I do, maybe just a flicker and then gone, but my read is invariably correct and either saves me a bet or two or earns me a bet or two.

Not a big deal, I suppose, except that it's genuinely fun to spot one. Very satisfying.

I'm not counting the obvious tells from hams who act weak when strong or strong when weak. Sometimes these creeps check when it isn't their turn and then bet when it is, or act depressed or angry when they hold the nuts. I'm not talking about those obvious attempts to deceive. You really don't have to be looking very carefully to pick up that phoney stuff.

However, you do have to be watching your opponent to see that inadvertent shadow of a twitch. (I suppose you could be tricked by opponents faking the twitch, but since they want you to see it, the fake is usually slightly more than a shadow and lasts slightly longer than the microsecond the real twitch lasts).

It can be in the eyes or the hands - just the shadow of a twitch.

But you do have to be watching.

Buzz

Re: Tell?
 

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At 5-10 and 10-20, I am wasting my time looking for tells.


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Not at all, you should be able to pick up loads of tells at those levels.


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If you value tells at this level over identifying the people at the table who have no idea what they are doing, then in my opinion your priorities are out of order.

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I never said anything about valuing one over the other. Once you know who plays what way, you can also pick up additional information as to how strong are they now, or what kind of hand they are holding.

It's one plus the other, not one or the other. At those levels, which I am fairly familiar with, many players are an open book.

Re: Tell?
 

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It can be in the eyes or the hands - just the shadow of a twitch.

But you do have to be watching.


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Right, sometimes you might not get much, but other times you can get some pretty strong reads. Overall, it can add quite a bit of value.

Don