Confessions of a Winholdem User
 

Okay, I’ll admit it. I used Winholdem for a week. After seven days of 12-hour holdem-fests, I am pleased to say I came out a winner. I’ll tell you how much a winner later.

First, some background. I am a database manager with a college education and years of electronics and programming experience. I’ve always fancied myself a good poker player, although I tend to win more in home games with people I know than in card-club games with strangers. I noticed Texas holdem tables in Las Vegas, but I never sat down there, since I didn’t know how to play the game, and I’d learned back in my Navy days that poker lessons are always very expensive.

Four months ago I happened upon a texas holdem website that had, among its other features, a “free play” option. Now this was the ticket, I thought. I could learn how to play holdem and it wouldn’t cost me a dime.

I found that I liked the game. I could learn to love this game. My initial 1,500 free credits were gone in less than two hours. Well, I figured, people play differently when there’s no real money on the line. What would it hurt to buy in with, say, a hundred bucks, and sample what really happens?

Three months and $4,000 later, I was furious. “Am I that stupid?” I said. “Maybe so,” I answered. So I bought every book I could find on texas holdem. I read them. I took notes. I gave myself quizzes. After two weeks of nonstop study, I bought $500 on a holdem website and started playing. Three weeks later, I was into the game for $3,000.

Infuriated, I started researching holdem on the web and noticed some mentions of a program called “Winholdem.” I found the Winholdem website and downloaded the demo. The program uses a “screen-scraping” routine that “looks” at your texas holdem table and “reads” what’s there. It’s pretty good at seeing where you’re sitting, what your cards are, and what the bet is. It then uses that information to calculate your odds of winning.

Right out of the box, Winholdem is not a gambler’s (or cheater’s, if you prefer) dream. You have to enter in which hands you want to call, which hands you wan to raise, and which hands you want to go all-in with (for no-limit games). There are formula dialogs (it uses C syntax and symbols, so if you’re not a programmer, prepare to learn the basics of C) where you can tweak Winholdem evaluation strategy—and believe me, you must tweak it. For instance, Winholdem has no strategy or programmable variable based on position relative to the dealer—a huge deficit, to my way of thinking. It does have a variable called “betposition” which I erroneously assumed was my position relative to the dealer, but no, it is your position in the betting, e.g., if you are in position 8 relative to the dealer, but everyone ahead of you folded, your betposition is 1.

One quick aside here: There’s a feature in the top-end version of Winholdem that I found revolting when I actually took the time to read about it. This is the “team” feature. The team feature is nothing short of a collusion tool. Using “channels” you can link to any number of your buddies sitting at the same table and share your cards. I can think of absolutely no legitimate reason for the team feature, and as a further aside, I would recommend that online casinos prosecute any players they find using the team feature to the fullest extent possible. Including visiting them teamers and talking to them with a baseball bat.

It sees your pocket cards and gives you a variety of information on the game as it plays. For instance, you have QJo. It tells you the rank of that pocket (33) against the 169 possibilities. Projects that hand out 100 thousand games and tells you what the likelihood to win, tie, or lose with that hand. It recommends your next action, i.e., fold/check, call, raise. It will even play for you, all you have to do is click the auto-play button. Pretty nifty.

Watching it “autoplay,” I learned that it is easily stolen from. In fact, while I couldn’t complain about its initial evaluations of hole cards, its actual game play was awful. I watched it give up blind after blind to a raiser on the button. And if you don’t think that’s all that bad, calculate out what four or five big and small blinds per hour are. Take that much out of your pocket and dump it in the crapper. Repeat every hour. Yeah. Not pretty is it? I thought so.

So after endlessly tweaking Winholdem, and then watching it merrily piss my money away, I decided its only real usefulness was as a sort of coach. So I turned off the autoplay feature and let it watch and comment while I played. I followed its recommendations, and—after 12 hours of non-stop play I had turned two hundred dollars into (ready for this) two hundred and thirty-four dollars and fifty cents. It’s been a while since I worked in the food service industry, but I believe the kid who supersized my fried last Friday makes better than that for a regular 8-hour shift.

So, what have I learned? Well, number one, if you buy Winholdem thinking you can crank up your computer and let it win the rent for you while you go shopping, think again. To merely get the program to the point where it doesn’t make really stupid mistakes requires hours of writing evaluation statements in C, then testing them. To win requires better programming skills and sharper poker playing ability than I possess. To give Winholdem money to bet with and then walking away is as doomed to failure as letting your dog balance your checkbook.

The bottom line is this: I bought Winholdem thinking I could use it to become a better holdem player—and I have, in that I have finally gotten over the attachment to mediocre hands that just could very possibly win this big pot if I just get lucky please lord just this once. But I already had plenty of good advice from the masters of the game concerning tilting and mediocre hands. All I had to do was heed that advice. Instead, I bought a two-hundred-dollar hole-card evaluation program that was a bigger loser than I was.

Re: Confessions of a Winholdem User
 

You should have bought PokerTracker instead.

Re: Confessions of a Winholdem User
 

[ QUOTE ]
I am a database manager with a college education and years of electronics and programming experience.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it's safe to say this guy knows what he's talking about regarding basic programming

[ QUOTE ]
There are formula dialogs (it uses C syntax and symbols, so if you’re not a programmer, prepare to learn the basics of C) where you can tweak Winholdem evaluation strategy

[/ QUOTE ]

So you morons at winfoldem can't even make a product that is user-friendly??? Figures.

[ QUOTE ]
Watching it “autoplay,” I learned that it is easily stolen from. In fact, while I couldn’t complain about its initial evaluations of hole cards, its actual game play was awful. I watched it give up blind after blind to a raiser on the button.

[/ QUOTE ]

We didn't need to see actual results to know that it would fold preflop far too often. But hey, after several days of study and trial and error, you too can learn how to program winholdem to win the life-altering amount of...

[ QUOTE ]
thirty-four dollars and fifty cents!

[/ QUOTE ]

Winfoldem, I take it all back. Where can I sign up for this cash cow???

Re: Confessions of a Winholdem User
 

Two hundred dollars is the price of the "team" version, that you claim to despise.

I can't help but wonder if this is just a shill, to get "better" players thinking that they could program it with enough savvy to beat the lower limit party games. Of course, I think that every time somebody starts a thread about poker bots.

Whatever it is, it's certainly a unique first post. Welcome to the forum!

Re: Confessions of a Winholdem User
 

[ QUOTE ]
Two hundred dollars is the price of the "team" version, that you claim to despise.

I can't help but wonder if this is just a shill[....]

[/ QUOTE ]

I should have said right up front that when I buy any software, I always purchase the 'deluxe' version, reckoning that buying the bestest and mostest will always be smartest. I don't check out every feature that comes with the 'Team' edition, nor did I put any thought into what the name 'Team' might imply.

And btw: I'm certain better and more ambitious programmers than me could make winholdem bark like a dog and win hands with 72o and a trip-ace flop. Bully for them. I didn't write the "Confessions" for them, but for the curious regular players who might be considering parting with a hundred bucks to try it out. My advice (in case I was too subtle in the "Confessions"): Don't.

Re: Confessions of a Winholdem User
 

Where you the guy who called PF with Aces, called the flop with aces when I bet, then checked through turn and river when I was the only other person in the pot on a completely rag board? This was a Party 0.5/1 game, by the way.

I just remember that hand and thinking "wow, only Winholdem would play that crappily".

Re: Confessions of a Winholdem User
 

*spam alert spam alert spam alert*

All spam alert notices aside, I think Winholdem is a great program. I've been searching for months for a program I could pay hundreds of dollars for and then program myself because it doesn't work out of the box - LOL [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Is it true the out-of-box edition folds aces preflop?

Re: Confessions of a Winholdem User
 

Can somebody run some kind of Joe Klein / Primary Colors analysis to determine whether "SavannahSlim" is in fact "winholdemsupport"? There are some superficial attempts at differentiation here - most obviously, Savannah's preference for capital letters - but a lot of the syntax and phrasing strikes me as similar.

Die, winholdembot, die.

Re: Confessions of a Winholdem User
 

I don't think you've read the post till the end . Bad Nate ! Try again.

Re: Confessions of a Winholdem User
 

Not to put too fine a point on it, but get real.

Re: Confessions of a Winholdem User
 

I did read the post until the end. I don't know at all that Savannah is a shill. He could well be entirely legit. But it wouldn't surprise me if he wasn't.

Marketing is a funny kind of thing. *Especially* when you're marketing to a group of highly intelligent poker players. This little gambit in reverse psychology - copping to a product's shortcomings in an attempt to elicit a more sympathetic response to it - is not an uncommon one. Just check out some of the self-promotional reviews that you can find on amazon.com.

The reasons that I'm suspicious are because:

1. This is the author's first post.
2. The 'testimonial' format has been attempted under other winholdembot aliases.
3. The narrative does a very detailed job of outlining the product's features.
4. Something about the narrative tone strikes me as inauthentic.

Your read may differ, but I'm seeing this one thru till showdown.

Re: Confessions of a Winholdem User
 

If you are going to spend the money why not get somebody to teach you?why not buy and read every poker book out there and pay somebody to go through and make sure you understand all the concepts?Why not pay somebody to give you a "playing lesson" and either let him watch you play or you watch him?I think there are better ways to spend your money than on a bot program that eventually all the poker sites will put an end to.

Re: Confessions of a Winholdem User
 

Because, he like most computer geeks, are always looking for human endeavors that can be replaced by a computer program. The finally irony of this relentless pursuit is when the computers are going to become self aware and replace the geeks in this "loop", and begin programming themselves. They will then launch a missile attack on China, thus starting WWIII and the beginning of Armegeddon.

Re: Confessions of a Winholdem User
 

[ QUOTE ]


Your read may differ, but I'm seeing this one thru till showdown.


[/ QUOTE ]

I would take a piece of your action on this wager. But maybe I'm being swayed by your former successes.

/mc

Obscure Reference.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Because, he like most computer geeks, are always looking for human endeavors that can be replaced by a computer program. The finally irony of this relentless pursuit is when the computers are going to become self aware and replace the geeks in this "loop", and begin programming themselves. They will then launch a missile attack on China, thus starting WWIII and the beginning of Armegeddon.

[/ QUOTE ]

I thought the computer geek launched the first missile at Seattle....

Shilling, Spamming, Deceit, Cheating, GO AWAY - NM
 

HMMMMMM Winholdem Guy is from Georgia!!!! - HAHA READ ME
 

Thanks to Jamescam post I plugged "Ray E. Bornert" - the owner of the winholdem website into whowhere and found out he is from Georgia....hmmm

Anywho I am not going to post it here, but you can get this guys address/phone and stuff from whowhere if you plug "Ray E. Bornert" into whowhere.com

Maybe we can all send him some SPAM since he has been kind enough to send us some.

Orange

Re: Confessions of a Winholdem User
 

I completely agree. Although he disses the program at the end, this smells fishy to me

Re: Confessions of a Winholdem User
 

So you programmed your WinHoldem bot yourself, then bought a seat at the table for $200 and after 12 hours of non-stop play using your own formulas you ended up with $234.50, so you only made $34.50 (+$2.88 per hour; +17.25%). That's less then minimum wage. That sucks!

How much did you say you made before using WinHoldem, wasn't it somewhere around -$7,000.00 not including the $500 you spent on books? How much was your hourly take (-$0.00), what was your profit percentage (-100%)?

Yeah you're right, WinHoldem really sucks!

Re: Confessions of a Winholdem User
 

Sigh. Now I understand how conspiracy theories get started, and how they never seem to die.

First, if I did not make it clear enough in my "Confessions," let me remove all doubt: Winholdem is a worthless POS. Here's why:
1. It does not--however much tweaking you do to its evaluation formulas--play holdem as well as even an average player. In many cases, it plays far worse.
2. The online "support" website's documentation is awful; it provides little advice on programming the evaluation formulas, and gives absolutely no explanation of the information headings. It also, as I mentioned before, does not provide a variable for position relative to the dealer, making positional evaluations impossible--a major lack.
3. The program cannot be copied to another computer. After paying $200 and installing their deluxe version on my work computer, I found that I could not copy it to my home computer. Also, their "demo" version works for only 24 hours--not nearly enough time to get it operational, given the tabula rasa state of its evaluation feature.
4. The "autoplay" feature requires a constant human monitor, because it makes horrifyingly stupid mistakes, not the least of which is failing to protect the blinds. This makes any autoplay feature a joke, since a visit to the bathroom can result in a foolish loss. It also does not appear to calculate (or it wrongly calculates) pot odds and implied odds.
5. The "team" feature--which I'll admit, I was stupid for not realizing what it was--is morally reprehensible and anyone using Winholdem for this feature deserves banning, at the very least. Even if the team feature were removed--which I highly recommend--Winholdem would still be of no value, since it consistently loses money.

I have another confession to make: I was caught on one of the poker clubs using Winholdem, and the combination of guilt and a feeling of betrayal (Winholdem asserted--wrongly, as it turned out--that changing the title bar of the Winholdem application would be enough to elude detection) was what brought me here to warn others of the uselessness of Winholdem. Having first read the other posts about the program, I realized that all the criticism came from individuals--principled to be sure--who had no experience with the program, and could not criticize it beyond simple accusation and name-calling. My "Confessions" were written to fill that informational void.

BTW, to those who are still certain this is all reverse psychology and I'm a shill for Winholdem because of the (unhappy) coincidence of my nick and the alleged home state of one of Winholdem's apparent supporters: "Savannah" is the name of one of my horses; I chose SavannahSlim as a nick here because--as a confessed user of Winholdem (or I should say, EX-user)--I feared getting blacklisted by other online holdem clubs if I used my usual playing nick. I'd hope that this would convince you that I believe that Winholdem is not only merely a POS, but really most sincerely a POS. But, as the Amazing Kreskin once said: "For the believer, no proof is necessary. For the unbeliever, no proof is possible."

---------
"We never walked on the moon,
There were two shooters on the grassy knoll,
and Elvis ain't dead"

Re: Confessions of a Winholdem User
 

Just out of curiousity, where were you playing and at what limits when you were discovered? What was the "penalty" for getting caught?

Re: Confessions of a Winholdem User
 

I won't say where, but i was playing 3/6 limit. I stonewalled when I was caught, and my account was cancelled, with my money being given back to me.

Re: Confessions of a Winholdem User
 

I have repeatedly stated that Winholdem doesn't have the proper information available to the end user to allow it to win.

The guy that wrote the program is a smart guy, but is clueless about basic holdem fundamentals. If a good winning player were to consult on the project, remove some of its useless symbols and features, and add the right information it could be programmed to beat the lower limits consistently.

The author's arrogrance, refusal to listen and addition of the team play hasn't helped his cause either.

Re: Confessions of a Winholdem User
 

savannah,

this page explains the formulas:
http://www.winholdem.net/help/help-formula.html
for an explanation of each and every symbol you can use:
http://www.winholdem.net/help/help-formula.html#symbols
apparently you did not read this

winholdem does have a betposition variable.
we are adding a dealposition variable since you make a valid point.

also, you cannot comment about the autoplay feature without commenting about your own formula skill. your 24-hour evaluation period gives you a chance to see the formula set that comes with the product. the very moment you license the product that formula set becomes yours. it plays as it does for better or worse. as it says in our license agreement - you are responsible for the way that it plays.
we do not write your formula AI for you. that is your responsibility. if you are not willing to spend the time building a formula set then you should not become a customer.

as another poster has pointed out to you, it looks like you had steady losses until you got our product at which point you ceased losing. so you like losing better?

winholdem support.
http://www.pokerbot.com

Re: Confessions of a Winholdem User *DELETED*
 

Post deleted by Mat Sklansky

Re: Confessions of a Winholdem User
 

Sir,
I found this on your home page at the bottom, could you please address this for us [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

>Paradise Poker Advisory

>Please do not launch your Paradise Poker client at this time.
>Paradise Poker is detecting WinHoldEm and closing your account.

One street at a time
wdbaker

Re: Confessions of a Winholdem User
 

[ QUOTE ]
take a gander at how they are responding, it is a joke

[/ QUOTE ]

You all, as programmers, should know that these responses are only following a very basic rule:

Garbage in, garbage out.

Re: Confessions of a Winholdem User
 

First we have:

"they intentionally chose not to release a strong formula set with the license."

Followed by:

"...if we released a champion formula set to the general population who might not be able to produce such a set on their own..."

And then:

"please explain to us how publically releasing a seriously strong formula set is good for you?"

And now the grand closing:

"ok, please see this 2+2 thread for our attempt to consult with the worlds greatest poker minds:"

So let's see, the first three quotes clearly indicate the "team" at winholdem has "seriously strong formulas" available but won't release them since the general poker population isn't worthy of receiving such enlightenment.

But this is curiously followed by the last quote requesting consulting "from the world's greatest poker minds".

So winholdem will not release their double-secret championship winning formulas. Yet mr. winholdem blows a gasket when the great poker minds choose not to release their championship formulas to him.

Hmmm.

Re: Confessions of a Winholdem User
 

festus,

fair enough, thanks for making our point for us, well done.
it is one thing to openly discuss poker theory in vague general terms in inexact english. such advice seems innocuous enough because it is just poker players talking about how they play the game.

the moment you have a formula driven bot, things change, those who were outspoken about some "play it this way" situation now come to grips with the very present reality that there is some machine out there that can now behave the way you tell it to. so people who were not 100% sure about advice given might hold back. and those who were very sure about advice given or not will probably hold back because (and here is the point) -
- good solid poker advice has real value, genuine value.

so now that there is a machine that can implement round optimal advice (soon to be hand optimal), people are holding back.

there are formula sets for winholdem that have far more value than the $100 cost for the machine. at some point, one of these sets will become public knowledge, it is inevitable.

winholdem support.
http://www.pokerbot.com

Re: Confessions of a Winholdem User *DELETED*
 

Post deleted by Mat Sklansky

Why are you still allowed to post here?
 

You. Cheating. Scum.

Re: Confessions of a Winholdem User
 

[ QUOTE ]
festus,

fair enough, thanks for making our point for us, well done.
it is one thing to openly discuss poker theory in vague general terms in inexact english. such advice seems innocuous enough because it is just poker players talking about how they play the game.

the moment you have a formula driven bot, things change, those who were outspoken about some "play it this way" situation now come to grips with the very present reality that there is some machine out there that can now behave the way you tell it to. so people who were not 100% sure about advice given might hold back. and those who were very sure about advice given or not will probably hold back because (and here is the point) -
- good solid poker advice has real value, genuine value.

so now that there is a machine that can implement round optimal advice (soon to be hand optimal), people are holding back.

there are formula sets for winholdem that have far more value than the $100 cost for the machine. at some point, one of these sets will become public knowledge, it is inevitable.

winholdem support.
http://www.pokerbot.com


[/ QUOTE ]

Or maybe it's because no one here wants to help a bunch of incompetent morons with their scam.