Utterly confused with KK
 

This is one of the most confusing hands I have played in awhile because the bets kept coming from different places, what the heck is happening? Please tell me all the ways in which I butchered this. BB, UTG and MP1 are all pretty loose with UTG and MP1 being particularly so. BB is the most agressive around 3.5, UTG is around 2 and MP1 is just a fish

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is CO with K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, Button calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, BB calls, UTG calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls.

Flop: (12.50 SB) T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(6 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, MP1 calls, MP2 folds, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, Button folds, BB calls, UTG calls, MP1 calls.

I felt this was similar to an example in SSHE where you have a pair of Q's and an ace falls. I was raising to protect my hand in a pretty large pot. UTG was pretty loose and agressive so I wasnt necesarrily going to give him credit for the ace.

Turn: (10.25 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, UTG calls, MP1 calls, Hero calls.

While this card appeared scary at first, it actually is probably better because it slightly lessens the chance that someone has an ace. BB is even more agressive postflop than UTG and I don't think he would slowplay the ace on the flop, everyone else just calls so I call because its a pretty good pot and my hand could still be best. I thought he may have had a flushdraw or something but the other two called. Anyone find a raise or a fold?

River: (14.25 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
BB checks, UTG checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets</font>, Hero calls, BB folds, UTG calls.

Final Pot: 17.25 BB

So a 9 falls and both of the first people check so I'm almost positive they dont have the ace, but MP1 is pretty passive and now he bets. I'm so confused but the pot is big and I think I should call down with the other two loose callers behind me. The only thing that MP1 could have is some random two pair maybe and he doesnt realize the aces counterfit him because there are no real draws. I almost raised but didn't, anyone see a raise or a fold here?

I really am just lost on this whole hand [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Re: Utterly confused with KK
 

Yeah, this hand makes you wanna stab your eyeballs with a fork.

I think it's ok, given the reads.

Re: Utterly confused with KK
 

I would fold the flop with an ace out there against 5 opponents. I just don't see any chance of taking this down unless you pull a K

Re: Utterly confused with KK
 

I've been letting hands like these go more often early on. It's an absolutely drawless, A-high board with 5 opponents. You're bet into on the flop and there's a call as well as a couple left to act after you.

Re: Utterly confused with KK
 

yeah, pretty yucky, I think I am folding the turn here because BB has cold called the A high flop and bet into 3 other players. Having said that he's aggro so I may have played it the same. On the river I'm not liking the MP1 bet either, he may have 99 or a counterfeited T9.

Since this kind of hand happens so infrequently I think you have to assume you are good 10% of the time. So whilst I may have folded the turn, to an aggro you describe I may play it the same.

Good post. Re-sluts?

Re: Utterly confused with KK
 

Although the example is a bit different because it is A high and opponents may be more apt to hang onto any A and in this hand there is a caller inbetween, I still believe it fits pretty well into the example on page 280, #15 in SSHE where you have a pair of queens and a K falls. Ed says that he may slightly consider folding without the backdoor flush, but in this senario the pot is even slightly bigger and I have good position. He would suggest folding especially against a straightfoward opponent but this is not one. What it says in the book:
"Raise, it is a little unatural to bet a king [in this case an A] into a from the big blind [UTG] into four players, including a preflop raiser. Most players would check: Passive players might check and call for fear you have ace-king, and aggressive players might check, planning to check-raise."
I thought if there was ever a time for that play it was here, aside from missing the backdoor flush, this is a very very similar situation.

Re: Utterly confused with KK
 

There's a big difference between QQ on a K-high board and KK on an A-high, drawless board. I'd be much more inclined in general to continue on with the QQ.

Re: Utterly confused with KK
 

I dont hate the raise on the flop with fewer callers (1 or 2). Heads up it is a wonderful move. I have had people lead the flop and fold to a flop raise in this situation many times - you clearly are representing the ace. Without an ace the other player cannot call. You might get some weak-tight players to fold an ace weak kicker here also.

In this hand: You raised preflop representing the big hand. I think this raise is questionable with this many players involved in the hand. An ace came on the flop - you raised and still got bet into with 3 callers on the turn. The ace on the turn makes it less likely that someone else has an ace. The BB could be leading with 44 or TT here and just hoping your AK with trips comes back with a raise. He could also be leading an Ax hand.

One reason I dont like this play here - If you raise the flop and it is checked to you on the turn - do you plan to check behind or bet?

However, I think at this point in the hand your KK is a 2-outer and there are only 10 BB in the pot. Time to give it up. Fold the turn.

Re: Utterly confused with KK
 

First of all, heads up this is the perfect scenario for way ahead/way behind so I wouldn't raise the flop and I would let him bluff his money away if he wants, bet if checked to.

Second, you say you don't like the raise with that many players involved but that is why the raise is there, to limit the already large field and give me a better chance of winning the hand, there was only "1 or 2" callers in front of me.

Finally, here is the main problem I have with folding this turn or this hand in general; when, in this entire hand does it look like someone has a big hand [pretty much the only thing you could have on this board that beats me]? BB betting into the field looks so much like a flush draw or a complete and utter bluff because he knows that card is scary. I don't see a LAG ever playing a hand like 44 or 1010 here so intelligently. Maybe if that were a smarter player I may give him credit, but he coldcalled the flop, most would almost certainly check/raise and I think he would probably check/raise the turn as well when he picks up a full house. I just don't buy in this whole hand that anyone has a killer hand, its all just so wierd.

If it is checked to me on the turn I bet, folding to a check/raise, check it through on the river most likely if I am still in it.

Re: Utterly confused with KK
 

[ QUOTE ]
Although the example is a bit different because it is A high and opponents may be more apt to hang onto any A and in this hand there is a caller inbetween, I still believe it fits pretty well into the example on page 280, #15 in SSHE where you have a pair of queens and a K falls. Ed says that he may slightly consider folding without the backdoor flush, but in this senario the pot is even slightly bigger and I have good position. He would suggest folding especially against a straightfoward opponent but this is not one. What it says in the book:
"Raise, it is a little unatural to bet a king [in this case an A] into a from the big blind [UTG] into four players, including a preflop raiser. Most players would check: Passive players might check and call for fear you have ace-king, and aggressive players might check, planning to check-raise."
I thought if there was ever a time for that play it was here, aside from missing the backdoor flush, this is a very very similar situation.

[/ QUOTE ]

The difference is that most people will play Axo and many less play Kxo. Because so many people will play "any Ace will do" you are much more likely to be beat here.

However after deciding to continue I think your play was ok. I might have also raised where you suggested. Probably a big looser though. Im assuming the results were bad?

Greg