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canis582 12-26-2005 03:58 PM

Re: No hoax
Whos to say he didnt get another visit that made him change his mind?

SheetWise 12-27-2005 12:08 AM

Tin Foil Adjustment
What's the Frequency, Kenneth?

Cyrus 12-27-2005 03:34 AM

Short-term-results-oriented thinking
STROT aka short-term-results-oriented thinking is prevalent in the current American administration (e.g. No attacks in Iraq for a week --> "the insurgency is in its last throes"), therefore it's understandable that the administration's most faithful acolytes here would adopt the mode.

However, it is still a wrong way of thinking.

The original story turns out to be a hoax. This story turns out to be true.

What is proven either way? Practically nothing. The EV here is negative : They ARE monitoring what Americans read, write and say and they do it with fewer checks and balances than ever (a libertarian's nightmare, btw, but they have not realized it yet!) so you can expect them to follow up on it, one way or the other, sooner or later.

The rest is variance.

lehighguy 12-27-2005 03:51 AM

Re: Short-term-results-oriented thinking
If I had to take a wild shot at what is going on, they are racially profiling Arabs and using the patriot act to monitor people with the losest possible connections to potential anti-American idealogoy.

Are they listening in on my moms phone calls, no. Are they bothering people because they donate to Howard Dean, equally unlikely. More likely it fits the above scenerio.

Is it right, no. But I really doubt there is a vast conspiracy as you might think.

ACPlayer 12-27-2005 04:43 AM

Re: Short-term-results-oriented thinking
But I really doubt there is a vast conspiracy as you might think.

[/ QUOTE ]

I am certain that in their minds the KGB only monitored those likely to commit atrocities against the USSR and/or bring down that state.

The point is that NO such monitoring for any reason, without proper due process and many protections, is acceptable. What is going on is quiet, hidden, under the wraps, not transparent, without oversight, without due process and initiated in many cases from a small coterie of like minded folks.

Cyrus 12-27-2005 10:03 AM

No conspiracy
Is it right? No. But I really doubt there is a vast conspiracy as you might think.

[/ QUOTE ]

Who said anything about a conspiracy ? It is all out in the open!

Now, about being right :

I was watching on TV the other day a re-run of Judgement At Nuremberg. It's a Stanley Kramer movie, so I don't need to mention that it wears its heart on its sleeve! I like my films more restrained.

But some of the dialogue is for all seasons. Here is a sample:

The 1948 trial of the Nazi judges is over and Judge Haywood (Spencer Tracy), head of a 3-man tribunal, and originally a federal judge from Maine, has just condemned all of them to life in prison, despite severe political pressures by the American political leadership to show leniency in view of the Berlin Crisis and the coming Cold War. The young, non-Nazi German defense lawyer Rolfe (Maximilian Schell) has come to visit Haywood at his residence, just before the latter flies back to the States.

Hans Rolfe: I'll make you a wager.
Judge Dan Haywood: I don't make wagers.
Hans Rolfe: [chuckles] It will be gentleman's wager... In five years, the men you sentenced to life imprisonment will be free.
Judge Dan Haywood [looks him over]: Herr Rolfe, I have admired your work in the court for many months. You are particularly brilliant in your use of logic.
[Rolfe nods with an appreciative smile]
Judge Dan Haywood: So, what you suggest may very well happpen.
It is logical in view of the times in which we live. But to be logical is not to be right.
And nothing on God's earth could ever make it right.


Exsubmariner 12-27-2005 10:17 AM

Re: Short-term-results-oriented thinking
Did you know, AC, that the patriot act provides for an oversight comittee on all survellience conducted in the borders of the US?

All this stuff about abuses of power is fear mongering and an over inflated sense that the average American is worth watching. Seriously, take me for instance, I go to work, come home, play poker on the internet & pay my taxes. Why would anyone think I was a threat?

Also, lets consider the enourmous resources it would take to actually utilize what information was gained about the average Joe to implement some measure of control over him. There are far more cost effective tools that the government has at it's disposal. The USSR example that you bring up fits well here. There was so much of the resources of the state directed at control through the use of the police state that the economy became unsustainable and collapsed under the weight of the politbureau.

ACPlayer 12-27-2005 10:58 AM

Re: Short-term-results-oriented thinking
All this stuff about abuses of power is fear mongering

[/ QUOTE ]

Stuff about abuses of power, if it is fearmongering, is fearmongering of the best type. Dismissing criticism as fearmongering is scary.

an over inflated sense that the average American is worth watching.

[/ QUOTE ]

It is not the average american, or the majority of Americans being watched that you should fear. It is the very first American who is being watched, whether from a car park, a library card photocopied, a credit card purchase traced, a phone call tapped, a lawyer denied, a hearing denied that you should really fear.

Some or all of this has already happened to that first American under this administration. That is frightening, not just fearmongering.

vulturesrow 12-27-2005 11:17 AM

Re: Short-term-results-oriented thinking
Time and again I have asked people on here to specify which provisions of the Patriot Act they find to be unconstitutional and why. The best I got was a link to a list of ACLU talking points. Most people dont realize that most of the provisions in the PA are either logical extensions of the FISA because of rapidly evolving technology and/or a standardization of common law enforcement practices whose Constitutionality has been upheld by Supreme Court decisions.

I realize there is more than concern over the Patriot Act here, but I dont have time to comment further. Suffice to say, you are right in that much of this overblown rhetoric at best.

Exsubmariner 12-27-2005 11:19 AM

Re: Short-term-results-oriented thinking
I didn't mean to come off as dismissive.

OK, what American has this happened to? Are you talking about Padilla? The Buffalo 5 or whoever they were?

Similar things have happened in the US before. Members of the American Nazi Party in WWII, not to mention the American citizens of Japanese descent that were interned into concentration camps. This was FDR and this happened in America. We survived WWII with greater freedom and prosperity after, am I right? Lincoln suspended Habius Corpus in the civil war. Seems everyone except the Southerners were OK with that one. J Edgar Hoover did everything you are talking about and more.

Is it frightening that there are forces within the US Government that can do whatever they want unchecked? Well, yes. Is it anything new? Not exactly. Should you and I be worried? Doubt it. Is it a necessary evil? Maybe. Can you or I change it? Maybe. Would it do more harm than good? Prolly.

The fact we are having this discussion in a thread about a ficticious story is what really frightens me.

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