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-   -   "Putting your tourney life on the line" is the new "AK is a drawing ha (http://archives2.twoplustwo.com/showthread.php?t=385791)

Pat Southern 11-26-2005 09:07 PM

Re: \"Putting your tourney life on the line\" is the new \"AK is a drawing ha
 
[ QUOTE ]
AKo is always a drawing hand against pocket pairs. It is about 5% behind a pair of 2s, 10% behind 77, and 13.5% behind QQ.

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This has opened my eyes!!! I wont overvalue AKs anymore. This should be a sticky.

MLG 11-26-2005 09:08 PM

Re: \"Putting your tourney life on the line\" is the new \"AK is a drawing ha
 
I am glad there were no sharp objects around me when i read this. The fishiest type of fish assumes you always have AK when they have 44. The second fishiest always assumes you dont have AQ/AJ/KQ when they have AK.

Seriously this all made me throw up in my mouth a little.

adanthar 11-26-2005 09:10 PM

Re: \"Putting your tourney life on the line\" is the new \"AK is a drawing ha
 
I made what I think is a pretty good post about playing AK in SNG's a while ago. You might want to search for it.

To specifically address your post, the fact that it is a drawing hand is theoretically true but completely irrelevant. The reason is that if you play it correctly, you will be all in preflop regardless in any situation where that *is* relevant (you have < 10-12, or sometimes < 15-20 BB) and will be the one getting away from a second best hand/making the 44 make a tough decision/paid off when ahead when you have a deeper stack.

---

To add something relevant to this thread, exitonly is similarly correct that there is not 'nothing' to this phrase (it has a kernel of truth at the bottom somewhere), but anyone who has it flash in their head as they make a play, or somebody who posts serious advice with it, is playing very wrong. Yeah, AK is a drawing hand. So what, you're gonna limp it with 6 BB to see if you hit, or coldcall every time a LAG raises from the button?

Exitonly 11-26-2005 09:12 PM

Re: \"Putting your tourney life on the line\" is the new \"AK is a drawin
 
I just played around with Pokerstove too...

apparantly, JJ is behind AA KK and QQ. And by a lot. Seriously, wow.
I'm pretty sure i just proved JJ = Drawing hand.

Melchiades 11-26-2005 09:13 PM

Re: \"Putting your tourney life on the line\" is the new \"AK is a drawin
 
nh

Bandgeek 11-26-2005 09:17 PM

Re: \"Putting your tourney life on the line\" is the new \"AK is a drawin
 
[ QUOTE ]
I just played around with Pokerstove too...

apparantly, JJ is behind AA KK and QQ. And by a lot. Seriously, wow.
I'm pretty sure i just proved JJ = Drawing hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

ROFL.

Funniest thing I've read all week

11-26-2005 09:20 PM

Re: \"Putting your tourney life on the line\" is the new \"AK is a drawin
 
that logic is flawed because there are other combinations to consider when you have AK than just a pair. Plus, you're almost always getting the odds you need to make it a good play. Even against QQ all I need is (gets out calculator) 1.4:1 odds to about break even.. most of the time I'll have that with dead money in the pot or if he's going over the top of an initial raise

Bandgeek 11-26-2005 09:23 PM

Re: \"Putting your tourney life on the line\" is the new \"AK is a drawing ha
 
[ QUOTE ]

Again, I considered AKs here instead of AKo, because AKo is even farther behind a pocket pair. 5% might not seem like a great deal to be behind a pair of twos, but that means that out of 100 pre flop all ins, AKo wins 47; 22 wins 53. With queens its 43:57. Which would you prefer? I'd rather be slightly ahead than slightly behind.

Will

[/ QUOTE ]

I may be a fish here but I'll take AK (suited or not) over 44 to push in with any day of the week and twice on Sunday.

You don't know what your opponent holds when you push in. With 44 you're basically 53/47 or so against any unpaired hand but a huge underdog to any pair bigger than 5's.

With AK you're only a big underdog against two hands, a big favorite against any unpaired hand, and a slight dog against any pair lower than Kings.

Call it what you want, it wins alot of pots.

11-26-2005 09:29 PM

Re: \"Putting your tourney life on the line\" is the new \"AK is a drawin
 
So you would put your ENTIRE TOURNAMENT LIFE ON THE LINE with a DRAWING HAND ?!?! [img]/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/ooo.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img]

mikeymer 11-26-2005 09:35 PM

Re: \"Putting your tourney life on the line\" is the new \"AK is a drawing ha
 
[ QUOTE ]
Ok, so I typed out a long post about why I think AK is a drawing hand. I never got around to posting it, so here it is.

--

I've seen some people on here recently critiquing the idea that AK is a drawing hand. In particular, this was being debated in the context of AK vs QQ. I became curious about this so I set out to see if it is true, and here's what I came up with.

AK is only not a drawing hand in the loosest sense. I've been trying out a bunch of different scenarios on PokerStove, and the fact is, AKs is a dog to every pair, all the way down to 22. The only time that it is not a dog to a pair is when it is playing against pocket twos with which it does not share a suit, and then, it has a .17% advantage over the 2s. Now, when I say a "dog," I mean that in the broadest terms possible. It is less than 3 percent behind a pair of fours. So, yes, AKs is essentially equivalent to a pair of 4s, but if you asked me my choice, I'd rather be all in with a pair of fours. I know it makes little difference, but with as much poker as many of us play, those little differences add up to a lot.

AKo is always a drawing hand against pocket pairs. It is about 5% behind a pair of 2s, 10% behind 77, and 13.5% behind QQ.

Back to AKs vs. QQ, assume that the players are not all in pre-flop. AKs is ahead of QQ whenever QQ is unimproved (about 88% of all flops) and AKs flops a flush, flush draw, or A/K. However, this happens less than 50% of the time (I think that it's about 45.77%). If my math is correct (and it may not be), this means that AKs is behind on about 60% of flops. AKs needs the turn and the river to get "even" (as in 53/47) odds with QQ. If AKs can only see the flop, it is likely to be behind QQ. It needs the turn and river to be close to even. It must "draw" to these two extra cards. Thus, it is a drawing hand. It does not rest on it's own laurels. It is dependent on the ability to see the entire board to get (almost) even odds with pocket pair.

Again, I considered AKs here instead of AKo, because AKo is even farther behind a pocket pair. 5% might not seem like a great deal to be behind a pair of twos, but that means that out of 100 pre flop all ins, AKo wins 47; 22 wins 53. With queens its 43:57. Which would you prefer? I'd rather be slightly ahead than slightly behind.

Will

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sweet jesus, is this a joke?


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