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-   -   "Putting your tourney life on the line" is the new "AK is a drawing ha (http://archives2.twoplustwo.com/showthread.php?t=385791)

adanthar 11-26-2005 08:13 PM

\"Putting your tourney life on the line\" is the new \"AK is a drawing ha
 
nd" is the new "should I fold AA PF" is the new "this phrase makes Adanthar want to sacrifice kittens to the Blood God to make it go away"

Please discuss.

KneeCo 11-26-2005 08:17 PM

Re: \"Putting your tourney life on the line\" is the new \"AK is a drawin
 
...and people saying "Putting your tourney life on the line" is annoying is the new "I'm better than you".

ansky451 11-26-2005 08:17 PM

Re: \"Putting your tourney life on the line\" is the new \"AK is a drawing ha
 
OMG dont risk your tourney life on the 3rd hand!!!

adanthar 11-26-2005 08:19 PM

Re: \"Putting your tourney life on the line\" is the new \"AK is a drawin
 
The fact that you can say that phrase and mean it means that I probably am, yes.

BTW, that last sentence is not meant to be sarcastic or demeaning, but if you don't get why that phrase is total nonsense, you are playing too weak tight.

Exitonly 11-26-2005 08:26 PM

Re: \"Putting your tourney life on the line\" is the new \"AK is a drawin
 
Agreed.

edit: though, not total nonsense, it's founded in something.. or atleast i just connect it to the thing mason posted recently, like how your value doesnt' double w/ a double up.. or how doubling your chips isn't as + as getting knocked out is -.

KneeCo 11-26-2005 08:31 PM

Re: \"Putting your tourney life on the line\" is the new \"AK is a drawin
 
You're missing the point.

Without getting into a big thing about this, I'm not arguing against the idea that "putting your tournament life on the line" is a cringe inducing phrase, I'm arguing that the biggest problem with 2+2 (which is nonetheless a great place) is not weak-tight statements, bad beat posts, two words answers or even blatant, immature flamers. The biggest problem is ego, so tone it down.

adanthar 11-26-2005 08:34 PM

Re: \"Putting your tourney life on the line\" is the new \"AK is a drawin
 
You're kinda missing the point, too...ego or no ego (and I won't argue that I've got one), if this thread grows to a couple of pages, two things will happen:

1)it will hopefully go away
2)a bunch of people will learn something

I don't post threads because I want people to worship me or anything, dude.

Melchiades 11-26-2005 08:34 PM

Re: \"Putting your tourney life on the line\" is the new \"AK is a drawin
 
I really think you are pointing your finger in the wrong direction if you think adanthars ego is a problem on this board.

Arnfinn Madsen 11-26-2005 08:46 PM

Re: \"Putting your tourney life on the line\" is the new \"AK is a drawing ha
 
In backgammon players often do suboptimal plays, since they want to complicate the position, since they are better than the opponent and want to reduce the luck factor. But very often both players do such suboptimal plays since they think they are better than the opponent, making it absurd.

I think the "I am not putting the tourney life on the line" is the equivalent in poker. An arrogant overestimation of skill difference.

11-26-2005 09:03 PM

Re: \"Putting your tourney life on the line\" is the new \"AK is a drawing ha
 
Ok, so I typed out a long post about why I think AK is a drawing hand. I never got around to posting it, so here it is.

--

I've seen some people on here recently critiquing the idea that AK is a drawing hand. In particular, this was being debated in the context of AK vs QQ. I became curious about this so I set out to see if it is true, and here's what I came up with.

AK is only not a drawing hand in the loosest sense. I've been trying out a bunch of different scenarios on PokerStove, and the fact is, AKs is a dog to every pair, all the way down to 22. The only time that it is not a dog to a pair is when it is playing against pocket twos with which it does not share a suit, and then, it has a .17% advantage over the 2s. Now, when I say a "dog," I mean that in the broadest terms possible. It is less than 3 percent behind a pair of fours. So, yes, AKs is essentially equivalent to a pair of 4s, but if you asked me my choice, I'd rather be all in with a pair of fours. I know it makes little difference, but with as much poker as many of us play, those little differences add up to a lot.

AKo is always a drawing hand against pocket pairs. It is about 5% behind a pair of 2s, 10% behind 77, and 13.5% behind QQ.

Back to AKs vs. QQ, assume that the players are not all in pre-flop. AKs is ahead of QQ whenever QQ is unimproved (about 88% of all flops) and AKs flops a flush, flush draw, or A/K. However, this happens less than 50% of the time (I think that it's about 45.77%). If my math is correct (and it may not be), this means that AKs is behind on about 60% of flops. AKs needs the turn and the river to get "even" (as in 53/47) odds with QQ. If AKs can only see the flop, it is likely to be behind QQ. It needs the turn and river to be close to even. It must "draw" to these two extra cards. Thus, it is a drawing hand. It does not rest on it's own laurels. It is dependent on the ability to see the entire board to get (almost) even odds with pocket pair.

Again, I considered AKs here instead of AKo, because AKo is even farther behind a pocket pair. 5% might not seem like a great deal to be behind a pair of twos, but that means that out of 100 pre flop all ins, AKo wins 47; 22 wins 53. With queens its 43:57. Which would you prefer? I'd rather be slightly ahead than slightly behind.

Will


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