Phil Gordon\'s \"Fish N Chip\" Sandwich
 

I think I just pulled off a textbook application of the play. For those unfamiliar, it occurs when a player is relatively shortstacked. If an player in EP raises and draws several callers, you move all in with a marginal hand hoping the initial raiser will reraise to isolate, thus getting the pot heads up with great equity. I just tried in the Stars $10 rebuy, and got the precise scenerio I wanted (BTW I was less than 10BBs here, M probably around 5)

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t1600 (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Button (t7146)
SB (t46860)
Hero (t13036)
UTG (t28665)
UTG+1 (t22071)
MP1 (t32627)
MP2 (t45990)
MP3 (t35557)
CO (t31143)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
<font color="#CC3333">UTG raises to t5000</font>, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, MP3 calls t5000, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, SB calls t4200, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to t12961</font>, <font color="#CC3333">UTG raises to t28590</font>, MP3 folds, SB folds.

Flop: (t51276) 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>

Turn: (t51276) 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>

River: (t51276) 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>

Final Pot: t51276

Results in white below: <font color="#FFFFFF">
Hero has 6h 7h (one pair, fours).
UTG has Ks As (one pair, fours).
Outcome: UTG wins t51276. </font>

Re: Phil Gordon\'s \"Fish N Chip\" Sandwich
 

Anyone else fold here?

Re: Phil Gordon\'s \"Fish N Chip\" Sandwich
 

There's about 18K in the pot when it gets to me. I put in my 5K and reraise 8K. The initial raiser reraises to isolate, matching my 8 and moving all in. This means I invested 13K to win (18+13+8) or 39K, or exactly 3 to 1. I'm only a 2:1 underdog to AK getting 3:1 on my money. What's not to like?

Re: Phil Gordon\'s \"Fish N Chip\" Sandwich
 

Nice move. You can't expect to get better odds than that, especially when you are short stacked. If you win that (1 in 3) you are the new big stack and primed to make a run.

I'll have to add this example to my bag of tricks when I'm short stacked.

Re: Phil Gordon\'s \"Fish N Chip\" Sandwich
 

Does anyone know of a calculator, something like ICM, but where you could plug in the entire prize payout structure for an MTT with x-people left? While getting 3-1 on your 2-1 dog is great, it might not be so great if 2 prizes up is a HUGE difference and there are 2 mega-shorties at the table (as an extreme example). It may still be a great play, but I'd love to see the math. ICM only seems to do 1-table SNGs:

http://sharnett.bol.ucla.edu/ICM/ICM.html

Edit: If someone can post the payout structure, I'll try to do the math. (Can't load PS here at work)

Re: Phil Gordon\'s \"Fish N Chip\" Sandwich
 

Still quite a ways from the money here. There were about 200 players left and 81st is the first to get paid, so the money is far from being a consideration yet.

Seeing how this would factor in later on in the money is an interesting consideration though.

Re: Phil Gordon\'s \"Fish N Chip\" Sandwich
 

Oh, I just assumed this was the final table for some reason (I think one of the other posters said something about chip leader). Yes, barring the money its all about eV.

But assuming this was the final table, with a standard top-heavy pay structure, I'd be interested to see what the $EV #s bear out.

Re: Phil Gordon\'s \"Fish N Chip\" Sandwich
 

Thanks for posting! It's a great move and I'll add it to my bag of tricks.

Re: Phil Gordon\'s \"Fish N Chip\" Sandwich
 

Nice move. I like it. Thanks for posting.

Re: Phil Gordon\'s \"Fish N Chip\" Sandwich
 

The presumption here is that an UTG raise represents oodles of strength and he will push over to isolate. In that respect, I like the move because an UTG raiser will probably do this almost all the time if he's not a maniac. (Good player's range on raising UTG at full table is probably only a few premium hands)

that being said, I still don't think I like the move because you don't know he has AK.. in this scenario, he had AK, you had a lot of equity and it was the right move.. but UTG could have easily had 10-10-A-A and you'd be 4:1.. I think it was very lucky he had AK, but it still seems like a shot in the dark/push and hope to be 2:1 dog type play.. not at all unreasonable for your chip stack, but more often than not I'm letting this go.

Re: Phil Gordon\'s \"Fish N Chip\" Sandwich
 

Against a range of 99+, AJ+ the hero is a 2 to 1 dog so he's getting appropriate odds against the range. I would still have a hard time pulling the trigger given I've got enough chips to play even if I fold. But it's definitely something to consider.

Re: Phil Gordon\'s \"Fish N Chip\" Sandwich
 

I think it depends mostly on what UTG has been raising with up to this point.. all the callers aren't really scary, nothing represents a big hand.. but an UTG raise is the raise I respect the most and would give the tightest range towards if he had not been active previously.. I dunno, it's definitely a gutsy play.

Re: Phil Gordon\'s \"Fish N Chip\" Sandwich
 

Artcile by Gordon on the subject

Re: Phil Gordon\'s \"Fish N Chip\" Sandwich
 

[ QUOTE ]
There's about 18K in the pot when it gets to me. I put in my 5K and reraise 8K. The initial raiser reraises to isolate, matching my 8 and moving all in. This means I invested 13K to win (18+13+8) or 39K, or exactly 3 to 1. I'm only a 2:1 underdog to AK getting 3:1 on my money. What's not to like?

[/ QUOTE ]

Your calculations are a little off. You are betting 11.5K. The amount posted in the BB doesn't count. The amount to win is 1.5K BB + 13K opponent + 10K two callers who folded + 1K ante = 25.5K, so you are getting 2.2-1 pot odds.

76s is 42% against AKo (41% if he has one of your suit) or 1.4-1 pot odds.

You got a good result in this case. However, the problem is what if UTG has JJ or some othe pair, rather than AK. 76s is 23% against AA and slightly worse against TT.

If multiple players flat call you or call UTGs push, you will actually have the highest win percentage, provided no one has an over pair. However, someone may have an over pair.

In summary, you got a good result here, although you lost. However, I think you are better off folding, although it is fairly close.

Re: Phil Gordon\'s \"Fish N Chip\" Sandwich
 

In Gordon's actual application of this he's usually looking for a loose EP raiser to make this play on. In most cases I'm sure he wouldn't mind a fold. The only reason he doesn't hate a call in this spot is due to the overlay the pot is providing thanks to the dead money. I like the play. Picking the right spot to use it doesn't appear to be easy. Even with the great pot odds, I'm not really wanting to place myself in a position where I bust out &gt;40% of the time.

As far as comparing the EV vs AK or JJ in this spot, since when do the majority of posters use tight 1-handed ranges when figuring their odds and equity in a pot? We all use ranges and the math makes it easy to look back and see what our equity in this pot is versus any range. Pick a reasonable range here and calculate the expectation versus the range, not a single hand. If we were all to go through our own HH files and pick out hands to recalculate our EV versus the actual hand shown down I'm sure we'd have made tons of mistakes cumulatively.

Re: Phil Gordon\'s \"Fish N Chip\" Sandwich
 

[ QUOTE ]
In Gordon's actual application of this he's usually looking for a loose EP raiser to make this play on. In most cases I'm sure he wouldn't mind a fold. The only reason he doesn't hate a call in this spot is due to the overlay the pot is providing thanks to the dead money. I like the play. Picking the right spot to use it doesn't appear to be easy. Even with the great pot odds, I'm not really wanting to place myself in a position where I bust out &gt;40% of the time.

As far as comparing the EV vs AK or JJ in this spot, since when do the majority of posters use tight 1-handed ranges when figuring their odds and equity in a pot? We all use ranges and the math makes it easy to look back and see what our equity in this pot is versus any range. Pick a reasonable range here and calculate the expectation versus the range, not a single hand. If we were all to go through our own HH files and pick out hands to recalculate our EV versus the actual hand shown down I'm sure we'd have made tons of mistakes cumulatively.

[/ QUOTE ]

As far as JJ and AK, I think this in correct and we don't need a range. 88-AA play similarly versus 76s and AT-AK, KQ-KJ play similarly versus 76s. I think JJ and AK are pretty representative of the ranges.

If the idea of Gordon's play is that you are looking to pick up the pot, this is a misapplication or a different move. There is absolutely no way this push picks up the pot.

Re: Phil Gordon\'s \"Fish N Chip\" Sandwich
 

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=3351
pokenum -h ac as - 6h 7h
Holdem Hi: 1712304 enumerated boards
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
As Ac 1315168 76.81 391637 22.87 5499 0.32 0.770
7h 6h 391637 22.87 1315168 76.81 5499 0.32 0.230

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=16742
pokenum -h ah as - 6h 7h
Holdem Hi: 1712304 enumerated boards
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
As Ah 1333573 77.88 371831 21.72 6900 0.40 0.781
7h 6h 371831 21.72 1333573 77.88 6900 0.40 0.219

Re: Phil Gordon\'s \"Fish N Chip\" Sandwich
 

[ QUOTE ]
If the idea of Gordon's play is that you are looking to pick up the pot, this is a misapplication or a different move. There is absolutely no way this push picks up the pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

I actually said:

[ QUOTE ]
In most cases I'm sure he wouldn't mind a fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you misinterpreted my post. I'm not saying he always wants a fold. The pot odds definitely justify the play - although it is a rather high variance play. I'm saying he's likely not upset with either result - taking it down now OR playing it out. I'm sure there's a small amount of FE in there. Perhaps it's not much but isn't it possible pairs like TT or JJ are folding here fearing they are a 4:1 dog? The fact that the overcallers didn't raise leads me to think they are very likely to fold in this spot. I'm fairly certain they don't have a big pair or AK in this spot.

In the OPs example the pot is barely laying 4:1 for the original raiser and there are no more implied odds by getting the pot HU with hero. If the original raiser fears being up against AA or KK calling this push or coming over the top of it is marginal at best - and at this stage of a MTT he may not think this is a big enough edge to push since losing puts him in a really bad spot. I'm not so sure that you'll never pick up the pot here but you're probably right that those folds are very rare. The villains would need to hold a rather specific range of hands that hero's raise would be capable of folding out all of them in this spot.

However, if hero doesn't get the isolation he's looking for here then he could be in a really tough spot.

From Gordon's article:
[ QUOTE ]
The initial raiser now has to call a very significant raise of $1,200. This is a very tough call with all but the greatest of hands.

Unfortunately, this time, my timing was off and he found a hand. The other two players folded (they didn't have a hand worth re-raising, so how can they call $1,200 more? It was very, very unlikely that either of them would be able to call such a big reraise.) Even with the call, however, I've still made a pretty good play. The pot has $3,650. I'm 42% to win. My pre-flop equity is $1,533.
I'm getting exactly the right odds on my money here.

[/ QUOTE ]

So he does look for folds in these spots. He isn't expecting the original raiser to really have a hand that can call this push very often. He's just figuring that even with a call he's not that bad off due to the equity the pot is offering.

Re: Phil Gordon\'s \"Fish N Chip\" Sandwich
 

Nice catch. At 2.2 to 1 odds this is a neutral EV play making it a clear fold to me given I still have enough chips to play if I fold. Good concept. Almost a perfect situation.

Re: Phil Gordon\'s \"Fish N Chip\" Sandwich
 

I probably fold here, however, FWIW if I was going to make this move this is one of the hands I do it with because you probably aren't in terrible shape.
~Justin

Re: Phil Gordon\'s \"Fish N Chip\" Sandwich
 

Your right, my math was dorked up here....2.2 to 1 is still nice but not the 3:1 originally stated.

Here were some of my important considerations:

1) I figured a zero percent probability of picking up the pot right there with the reraise. Only the very worst players with the very worst holdings sitting in UTG's position fold here. In fact I'm counting on UTG to reraise here (preferably with big unpaired cards) to shut out the other callers.

2) The callers are typical of the ones Gordon described as the ideal to try this play (a bit too loose with PF raise-cold call standards). I saw no reason one of the other callers was doing something tricky like 2nd hand low.

3) Winning this pot gets me immediately back into the tournament hunt.

In the end, I got exactly what I wanted: My low suited connectors against big unpaired cards with 10K chips from the players shut out plus blinds and antes as overlay. I'm OK busting out here since I'd soon have to begin a long series of openpushes which is the poker equivalent of walking a minefield. If I make my hand however, I can continue play with a normal stack. It all comes down to what you are more comforatable with: One big risk now or many risks (without nearly this kind of overlay) in the tournament's near future. Personally, I was quite happy to get my chips in with the worst of it here.

Re: Phil Gordon\'s \"Fish N Chip\" Sandwich
 

[ QUOTE ]
hoping the initial raiser will reraise

[/ QUOTE ]

Wouldn't you rather hope that everyone folds and you pick up a nice pot?

Re: Phil Gordon\'s \"Fish N Chip\" Sandwich
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
hoping the initial raiser will reraise

[/ QUOTE ]

Wouldn't you rather hope that everyone folds and you pick up a nice pot?

[/ QUOTE ]

When ther are 3 players in for 5K. it is kind of wishful thinking to hope they will all fold for another 5K.

Re: Phil Gordon\'s \"Fish N Chip\" Sandwich
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
hoping the initial raiser will reraise

[/ QUOTE ]

Wouldn't you rather hope that everyone folds and you pick up a nice pot?

[/ QUOTE ]

Funny

Re: Phil Gordon\'s \"Fish N Chip\" Sandwich
 

He raised another 8k.

There is a SLIGHT chance all will fold, but incredibly unlikely. (For instance if intial raiser is weak and worried about getting big action from the players behind)