Larry Brown: Legend or Luckbox?
 

As some of you know, I have confessed to not being an NBA fan. I don't watch it, and don't really care to, I used to growing up, but not anymore. But being in NYC, I do read the papers, and see what's going on, especially on the Back Page.

I'm interested in what this forum thinks of Mr. Brown. He has seemingly helped turn around many teams when he came in, but didn't win a championship until a couple of years ago, when he took over a talented Pistons team.

With Brown out of Detroit, and Flip Saunders in, the Pistons seem to be doing even better than when Brown was there. Is this because Flip > Brown, or some other reason?

Brown is now in New York, coaching the pitiful Knicks, who seem to be worse this year than ever before.

I think Larry Brown is an interesting topic, and I believe this will spark some interesting discussion. I'm just looking for some thoughts from people who know more than me.

Thanks,

P. Dirty

Re: Larry Brown: Legend or Luckbox?
 

LUCKBOX!!!!!!!

Re: Larry Brown: Legend or Luckbox?
 

Legend, but his stubbornness in recent years is starting to kill his reputation, ESPECIALLY his intransigent refusal to play rookies, whilst favoring veterans.

First, immediately after his hiring, he stated he was brought in to develop Darko Milicic. Instead, he benched him, gave him DNP-CD nearly every game, and killed his confidence. Maybe Darko was a little overhyped at first, but still, I refuse to believe EVERYONE was completely wrong with him. I think its a mixture of shattered 18-yo confidence and a new league and players.

Second came his horrible Olympic showing, when he stubbornly started Starbury game after horrific game, meanwhile allowing Dwyane Wade, LeBron James, Carmelo Anthony, and Amare Stoudemire rotted away on the bench. A front line of Duncan and Amare would have been unstoppable in Olympic play.

Third was his slow slow slow tempo to the Pistons. It nearly worked again last year, but this year has shown that it was nearly clamping the offense down. This may have worked 10 years ago with the Pacers, but the L has changed since then.

Finally, this year's Knicks. Just a mess.

He better fix it up soon, or his legacy is going to be VERY tarnished.

Re: Larry Brown: Legend or Luckbox?
 

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Legend, but his stubbornness in recent years is starting to kill his reputation, ESPECIALLY his intransigent refusal to play rookies, whilst favoring veterans.

First, immediately after his hiring, he stated he was brought in to develop Darko Milicic. Instead, he benched him, gave him DNP-CD nearly every game, and killed his confidence. Maybe Darko was a little overhyped at first, but still, I refuse to believe EVERYONE was completely wrong with him. I think its a mixture of shattered 18-yo confidence and a new league and players.

Second came his horrible Olympic showing, when he stubbornly started Starbury game after horrific game, meanwhile allowing Dwyane Wade, LeBron James, Carmelo Anthony, and Amare Stoudemire rotted away on the bench. A front line of Duncan and Amare would have been unstoppable in Olympic play.

Third was his slow slow slow tempo to the Pistons. It nearly worked again last year, but this year has shown that it was nearly clamping the offense down. This may have worked 10 years ago with the Pacers, but the L has changed since then.

Finally, this year's Knicks. Just a mess.

He better fix it up soon, or his legacy is going to be VERY tarnished.

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he's doing such a [censored] awful job,.

Re: Larry Brown: Legend or Luckbox?
 

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Third was his slow slow slow tempo to the Pistons. It nearly worked again last year, but this year has shown that it was nearly clamping the offense down. This may have worked 10 years ago with the Pacers, but the L has changed since then.

[/ QUOTE ]

The Pistons are still one of the slowest offensive teams in the league.

Re: Larry Brown: Legend or Luckbox?
 

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Third was his slow slow slow tempo to the Pistons. It nearly worked again last year, but this year has shown that it was nearly clamping the offense down. This may have worked 10 years ago with the Pacers, but the L has changed since then.

[/ QUOTE ]

The Pistons are still one of the slowest offensive teams in the league.

[/ QUOTE ]

This year, they are 6th in the league in scoring.

Last year, they were 24th.

Two years ago, they were 24th.

Re: Larry Brown: Legend or Luckbox?
 

He has improved every team he has coached. He even took the Clippers to the playoffs.
Who cares about what the Knicks look like now, this time next year he'll have them competitive, he always does.

Re: Larry Brown: Legend or Luckbox?
 

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Third was his slow slow slow tempo to the Pistons. It nearly worked again last year, but this year has shown that it was nearly clamping the offense down. This may have worked 10 years ago with the Pacers, but the L has changed since then.

[/ QUOTE ]

The Pistons are still one of the slowest offensive teams in the league.

[/ QUOTE ]How do you figure? 6th in the league in PPG, the only teams that score more than them are full of shooters and gunners. Also, watching them this year is almost night and day compared to last year. Flip has opened up their offense emmensely. I even heard Chauncey say that they rarely run any half courts sets now.

Re: Larry Brown: Legend or Luckbox?
 

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Third was his slow slow slow tempo to the Pistons. It nearly worked again last year, but this year has shown that it was nearly clamping the offense down. This may have worked 10 years ago with the Pacers, but the L has changed since then.

[/ QUOTE ]

The Pistons are still one of the slowest offensive teams in the league.

[/ QUOTE ]

This year, they are 6th in the league in scoring.

Last year, they were 24th.

Two years ago, they were 24th.

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't say they were a BAD offensive team, just a SLOW one.

Re: Larry Brown: Legend or Luckbox?
 

Just a general comment here -- not a direct response to Josh W, but it fits here as well as anywhere. Yes, the Pistons are better offensively, by a significant margin. But winning basketball -- and in particular, winning championships -- isn't just about scoring points. Larry Brown instilled a selfless, team-first attitude into a group of players (including RASHEED WALLACE, for crying out loud), and that attitude carries over today into the way the Pistons play defense and share the ball.

Perhaps Brown misjudged them offensively, and this is not to take anything away from Flip Saunders -- but it's wrong to suggest that Flip is a better coach than Larry because the Pistons are better this year than the last two years. Larry Brown (and Joe Dumars and probably others within the organization) laid the foundation for this team to play the way it is currently playing.

The guy has won a ton of games, and unlike guys like Phil Jackson and Red Auerbach, he hasn't always had the league's best player (or two best players) on his teams (I do separate Red from Phil because of the former's role in personnel decisions).

As for his current performance with the Knicks, I haven't been paying too much attention to them this year, but what do you want from a guy who has Isiah Thomas building the team for him?

-McGee

Re: Larry Brown: Legend or Luckbox?
 

Brown is an excellent coach, however I dislike him, mostly because he can't stick with one [censored] team for an extended period of time. Also, last year was ridiculous, he constantly shed doubt about his coaching status, and health. I think Larry is a guy that loves the attention.

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With Brown out of Detroit, and Flip Saunders in, the Pistons seem to be doing even better than when Brown was there. Is this because Flip > Brown, or some other reason?


[/ QUOTE ] My theory as to why they are better this year. This team has played together for three years now, everyone is use to each other, and has matured greatly. Brown was the perfect fit for that team. He came in and taught all of the Pistons how to play excellent team basketball, on both the offensive and defensive ends. However, he was waaay to controlling of the offensive pace. But then again, he is a big game tempo guy; he wants to play the game at the tempo he likes, which is slow.


With all that in mind, all that anyone would have to do to be a successfull coach in Detroit would be to give them some more freedom on offense. The Pistons already know how to play TEAM defense, and they already knew how to spread the ball around, so those aspects are still there. Only difference is the offense is faster, they fast break more often(something they can do with the Walllaces' defensive rebounding tenacity). The end result is a team that scores much more.

Oh, also, their bench is deeeeeeeeep too.

Re: Larry Brown: Legend or Luckbox?
 

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I didn't say they were a BAD offensive team, just a SLOW one.

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Why is slow relevant to the discussion?

-McGee

Re: Larry Brown: Legend or Luckbox?
 

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Third was his slow slow slow tempo to the Pistons. It nearly worked again last year, but this year has shown that it was nearly clamping the offense down. This may have worked 10 years ago with the Pacers, but the L has changed since then.

[/ QUOTE ]

The Pistons are still one of the slowest offensive teams in the league.

[/ QUOTE ]

This year, they are 6th in the league in scoring.

Last year, they were 24th.

Two years ago, they were 24th.

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't say they were a BAD offensive team, just a SLOW one.

[/ QUOTE ]last year they were, not this year though. Unless you can find some LSPPPM* stat or something showing how slow they are.

*Land Speed Per Player Per Minute.

Re: Larry Brown: Legend or Luckbox?
 

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Third was his slow slow slow tempo to the Pistons. It nearly worked again last year, but this year has shown that it was nearly clamping the offense down. This may have worked 10 years ago with the Pacers, but the L has changed since then.

[/ QUOTE ]

The Pistons are still one of the slowest offensive teams in the league.

[/ QUOTE ]How do you figure? 6th in the league in PPG, the only teams that score more than them are full of shooters and gunners. Also, watching them this year is almost night and day compared to last year. Flip has opened up their offense emmensely. I even heard Chauncey say that they rarely run any half courts sets now.

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I didn't say they sucked, they were just slow. Let's look at shot clock usage.

Denver shoots 44% of its shots within 10 seconds of their possession, and 69% within 15 seconds.
Phoenix: 47, 78
Charlotte: 43, 67
Detroit: 34, 59

They're a very efficient offense. They're 6th in PPG despite being 26th in posessions per game. But they're still a slow offense.

Re: Larry Brown: Legend or Luckbox?
 

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I didn't say they were a BAD offensive team, just a SLOW one.

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Why is slow relevant to the discussion?

-McGee

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I'm just saying that Larry Brown's offense didn't suck because it was slow...

And while Flip has vastly improved the offense, yes, the Detroit defense has suffered.

Re: Larry Brown: Legend or Luckbox?
 

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They're a very efficient offense. They're 6th in PPG despite being 26th in posessions per game. But they're still a slow offense.

[/ QUOTE ] They still wait for good shots, the difference now is that they don't intentionally try and slow the game down. The love to push the ball up the court now.

Re: Larry Brown: Legend or Luckbox?
 

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I'm just saying that Larry Brown's offense didn't suck because it was slow...



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Ah. My mistake.

-McGee

Re: Larry Brown: Legend or Luckbox?
 

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My theory as to why they are better this year. This team has played together for three years now, everyone is use to each other, and has matured greatly.

[/ QUOTE ]

Isn't this the same with the Spurs? IIRC, the Pistons handled them pretty easily last week...something they couldn't do last year. Obviously, it's one game, but I'm sure you see where I'm going...

Re: Larry Brown: Legend or Luckbox?
 

I'm still not clear why a team that is predominantly comprised of very young and unproved players sought out a coach who established a record of being reluctant to play young and unproven players.

Re: Larry Brown: Legend or Luckbox?
 

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My theory as to why they are better this year. This team has played together for three years now, everyone is use to each other, and has matured greatly.

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Isn't this the same with the Spurs? IIRC, the Pistons handled them pretty easily last week...something they couldn't do last year. Obviously, it's one game, but I'm sure you see where I'm going...

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Did you not watch the Finals at all?

The Pistons got blown out of the water in the first 2 games in SA. Granted, they were coming off a grueling 7-game series with the Heat, while the Spurs polished off a Joe Johnson-less Suns team in 5 games. Either they weren't used to the Spurs, or they were tired, they sucked ass the first 2 games.

If you take a look at the last 5 games of the series, if it wasn't for Sheed trapping Ginobili in the corner and leaving Robert Horry wide open for the three in OT of Game 5, the Pistons would have won 4 of the last 5. Coulda shoulda woulda... I'm not complaining; the Spurs played brilliantly and deserved the title. I'm just saying the Pistons played nobly last year as well.

Re: Larry Brown: Legend or Luckbox?
 

If I owned a crappy NBA team, I would throw big money at Brown for 3 years to turn my team in to a playoff team, then throw bigger money at Phil Jackson to take us to the title.
Foolproof plan to take an expansion team to the NBA title in 6 years, no? [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: Larry Brown: Legend or Luckbox?
 

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My theory as to why they are better this year. This team has played together for three years now, everyone is use to each other, and has matured greatly.

[/ QUOTE ]

Isn't this the same with the Spurs? IIRC, the Pistons handled them pretty easily last week...something they couldn't do last year. Obviously, it's one game, but I'm sure you see where I'm going...

[/ QUOTE ]

Did you not watch the Finals at all?

The Pistons got blown out of the water in the first 2 games in SA. Granted, they were coming off a grueling 7-game series with the Heat, while the Spurs polished off a Joe Johnson-less Suns team in 5 games. Either they weren't used to the Spurs, or they were tired, they sucked ass the first 2 games.

If you take a look at the last 5 games of the series, if it wasn't for Sheed trapping Ginobili in the corner and leaving Robert Horry wide open for the three in OT of Game 5, the Pistons would have won 4 of the last 5. Coulda shoulda woulda... I'm not complaining; the Spurs played brilliantly and deserved the title. I'm just saying the Pistons played nobly last year as well.

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And my point was that the Pistons seem that much better this year. I'm trying to get at as to why.

Re: Larry Brown: Legend or Luckbox?
 

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I'm still not clear why a team that is predominantly comprised of very young and unproved players sought out a coach who established a record of being reluctant to play young and unproven players.

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Because their GM is a [censored].

Re: Larry Brown: Legend or Luckbox?
 

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And my point was that the Pistons seem that much better this year. I'm trying to get at as to why.

[/ QUOTE ] I think my reasoning is a good explanation as to why. That doesn't necessarily mean that Flip is better than Brown. Actually, it makes Brown look that much better. Remember, really all that Flip is doing is just not getting in the way, and letting them play. Which is something Brown would never do.

Re: Larry Brown: Legend or Luckbox?
 

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My theory as to why they are better this year. This team has played together for three years now, everyone is use to each other, and has matured greatly.

[/ QUOTE ]

Isn't this the same with the Spurs? IIRC, the Pistons handled them pretty easily last week...something they couldn't do last year. Obviously, it's one game, but I'm sure you see where I'm going...

[/ QUOTE ]IMO, the Spurs team from last year was better than this years.

Re: Larry Brown: Legend or Luckbox?
 

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My theory as to why they are better this year. This team has played together for three years now, everyone is use to each other, and has matured greatly.

[/ QUOTE ]

Isn't this the same with the Spurs? IIRC, the Pistons handled them pretty easily last week...something they couldn't do last year. Obviously, it's one game, but I'm sure you see where I'm going...

[/ QUOTE ]

Did you not watch the Finals at all?

The Pistons got blown out of the water in the first 2 games in SA. Granted, they were coming off a grueling 7-game series with the Heat, while the Spurs polished off a Joe Johnson-less Suns team in 5 games. Either they weren't used to the Spurs, or they were tired, they sucked ass the first 2 games.

If you take a look at the last 5 games of the series, if it wasn't for Sheed trapping Ginobili in the corner and leaving Robert Horry wide open for the three in OT of Game 5, the Pistons would have won 4 of the last 5. Coulda shoulda woulda... I'm not complaining; the Spurs played brilliantly and deserved the title. I'm just saying the Pistons played nobly last year as well.

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And my point was that the Pistons seem that much better this year. I'm trying to get at as to why.

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If you're basing it off of regular season records, you may be misled. Last year's Pistons team had that ugly brawl and the suspensions that killed its first half of the season. In addition, Larry Brown was in and out of surgery for a few games as well.

Most importantly, they suffered from "post-title complacency". This is coming from an NBA League Pass Pistons fan who watched probably 80+ of their 82 regular season games last year. They just didn't care, and figured they could turn it on in the playoffs again. They almost did, but the Game 7 loss is ingrained in their minds. This year, nearly every Piston has been quoted saying that they feel they would have won if they had played Game 7 of the Finals at the Palace. This year, they're not taking any games off, and are intent on securing that crucial home court advantage.