Being critisized got me thinking
 

Poker Stars $10 + rebuys NLHE Tourney
About 350 left, started with 900+
Blinds are 200/400 + ante $50
I have about 10k, slightly below average
I'm on the button with 22

It's been folded to Late Middle Position who limps in, folded to me and I raise the minimum, sb folds, bb calls. LMP calls (after some thought).

My thinking here is that I want to build a pot should I hit my hand. Both the sb and bb are bigger stacks with the LMP on a slightly smaller stack than I. The sb has been a little loose agressive but knows what he's doing (at least that's my read), so I was reasonably sure he would come along if he had any reasonable hand. I was also hopeful that the bb (chip leader at the table, and had been strangley passive since becoming so - very bad cards since I guess) would come along also with what by then would be pretty good pot odds. I'm also thinking that I may get to see the turn card free).

Now here is my question. Given that the vast majority of the time I am going to be folding to any action if the flop misses me, am I wasting a bet here?

By just limping along also the pot is still of a reasonable size that should I hit and at least 1 of my opponents gets a good amount of the flop (my ideal scenario), I'm still in very good shape.

By raising the minimum am I giving the sb and bb the incentive to take the pot there and then if either wakes up with a big hand. Also the LMP hesitated before calling my raise, if he had re-raised (and I took his hesitation to mean he was thinking about it) I would have to fold.

On the flip side, if the blinds had both gotten complete rags there is a chance (slim given the table dynamics) that with them both folding and the LMP player missing all the way if he held 2 high cards (what I put him on) my 22 might get the money without any more help.

The flop was Q 2 rag and the bb checked, LMP raised all-in, I called, bb folds. My set beat his KQ and he berated me along the lines of "bet u don't make the money playing pocket 2's". I didn't [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

I was pleased with the way I played this at the time but when had a go at me it started me thinking. Not about whether pocket 2's are playable in the circumstances - another thread I think. And for what it's worth I think they are - but as asked above was my raise +EV or not in this situation?

Thanks for any comments.

Re: Being critisized got me thinking
 

If he didn't want you playing pocket 2s, he should have raised. If I were you, I'd either raise 3-5x the Big Blind, or just limp in. IMO, most of the value of small pocket pairs comes from hitting your set and busting a larger size stack. The 3-5x raise would be more of a steal attempt, and I would have folded to a large re-raise in that case. Limping in lets you get out of the hand cheaply, because if you don't hit your set, there will be overcards (duh) to your 2s. I'd do either/or, but not just raise the minimum.

Re: Being critisized got me thinking
 

Personally I would not make the raise here because it opens you up to a re-raise all-in from the LMP as you note, also 22 is a hand you probably want customers with if you aren't going to try and take it down right there (and you are unlikely to take it down right there with a minimal raise). As for the blinds making a play with a big hand, I suspect the is irrelevant, they will do it whether or not you raise the minimum. In fact raising the minimum might make it more likely for them to call in order to check raise you on the flop when its likely you'll bet since you raised pre-flop (although based on your post it seems you might not be that type of player and they might know this).

As for his criticism, whatever :-). You don't say exactly how much he had but if I guess 9000 and he put in 800 preflop and then moved all in to a ~3000 pot against the raiser I don't really like the play ~2500 would have been more than 1/4 your stack and enough to fold you out if you have nothing but have enough left to get away if there are problems. Maybe he was worried you would check through and there was a two flush on the board.

Re: Being critisized got me thinking
 

With 10k and blinds of 200-400 I would just limp on the button. Doubling the blinds is something I never do. If I want to build a pot I will raise 3 or 4xBB, but with 22 after a limper I would only limp.

Your opponent played the hand much worse than you did. Limping late in the pot with KQ is worse than mini-raising with 22!

Ken Poklitar

Re: Being critisized got me thinking
 

He's an idiot...let him be.
However, I do agree with some of the others here that you should have either limped or raised about 4xBB. Mini-raising is rarely correct, and you open yourself up for a big reraise.
"Never raise when being reraised all in will make you throw up" - D. Sklansky TPFAP

Being reraised all in wouldn't exactly make you throw up, but you would like to see a flop cheaply (limp) or take the blinds/limps (raise 4-5xBB).

Re: Being critisized got me thinking
 

Thanks for all the replys guys. I'd also like to thank the heckler in a way, he made me think about how I had played the hand, not from his perspective but mine. The hand played out as well as it could have for me and I may have subconsiencely stuck it in the back of mind as a good play.

He made me think about it and you have all confirmed my suspicions - it was a poor play which worked out. By trying to get cute when solid poker was the order of the day I made the worst decision I could.

Hey I may be getting the hang of this poker lark. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] (Heckle please, so I get this dumb notion out of my head RIGHT NOW!)

Re: Being critisized got me thinking
 

Heh, the correct response to that is, "Maybe not, but I'll finish closer to it than you did." [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

Don't beat yourself up, it was a good play. If you can get to a flop cheaply with a pocket pair, do it. The implied odds you get for hitting your set are huge (as you demonstrated in this hand).

Re: Being critisized got me thinking
 

""Never raise when being reraised all in will make you throw up" - D. Sklansky TPFAP"

Actually for steals with a decent stack, I don't agree with this statement. When you are stealing the blinds, it is better to be raised with a hand where you have a simple decision to muck rather call the re-raise with a good 2nd best type hand.

Ken Poklitar

Re: Being critisized got me thinking
 

[ QUOTE ]
""Never raise when being reraised all in will make you throw up" - D. Sklansky TPFAP"

Actually for steals with a decent stack, I don't agree with this statement. When you are stealing the blinds, it is better to be raised with a hand where you have a simple decision to muck rather call the re-raise with a good 2nd best type hand.

Ken Poklitar

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, Ken, you and Sklansky are making the same statement. With 22 (a decent hand insofar is it is a favorite over any non pair and can flop a hand that will probably be a big favorite), you really don't want to be re-raised here because you may be forced to throw the best hand away (or, if you call, may end up being dominated by a better pair).

If he had 27o, a raise would not make him "throw up" because his decision would be easy. In TPFAP, Sklansky includes examples that make it plain that he is making the same point Ken is.

Re: Being critisized got me thinking
 

[ QUOTE ]
Being reraised all in wouldn't exactly make you throw up, but you would like to see a flop cheaply (limp) or take the blinds/limps (raise 4-5xBB).

[/ QUOTE ]

Especially when most folks are more than happy to make a steal bet with Ace-anything, King-strong, all of which 2-2 is favored over when all-in preflop. At this stage in the tourney, a good bet is likely to take the blinds anyway.