AK flop decision - 20/40
 

20/40 live, full good game. I open in MP with A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. Very tight player (TP - running bad has caused him to be more passive than usual) cold-calls to my immediate left. I see him calling with AQ, AJ, ATs or a medium pocket pair. All others fold except BB, who is a loosey-goosey and plays a variety of cards. Three to the flop.

FLOP: A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]8 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]4 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

BB checks. In my mind, I have two choices:

Re: AK flop decision - 20/40
 

In this spot I like betting the flop becuz if opens up a chance that I can trap the tight player on the turn for more money.

For example: Lets say I bet the flop and the tight player just calls, and the BB calls or folds. Since I would put the tight player on an ace, I would check the turn knowing the tight player will bet and then I will raise.

Also If I bet the flop and the tight player raised and the BB folded, I would just call and checkraise the turn. When out of position, 3 betting the flop and leading the turn is my usual line, but on this drawless of a board I prefer trapping the villain on the bigger streets.

If I bet the flop and the tight player raised, and the BB called, I would 3 bet right away since I have two donating customers, and there's no guarantee the BB will commit more money on the turn, so I'd rather charge him 3 bets now.

Re: AK flop decision - 20/40
 

I think this is a pretty easy bet. If you check and TP does bet and BB does call (a parlay) and you checkraise, what hands are going to call you? Pretty much only one of the other 2 aces. If you bet, it looks like a continuation and you can get called down by JJ, etc. Or whatever. And like you said, getting raised will allow you to 3-bet for value.

Checking TPTK in this spot is a bit of FPS.

Re: AK flop decision - 20/40
 

[ QUOTE ]


Checking TPTK in this spot is a bit of FPS.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd say this is more than a bit of FPS, rather it is the definition of FPS. Put your money in the pot when you have the best hand. What happens if the flop gets checked through?? That would suck big time.

West and PJ are right on. Getting raised and having the bb fold is not the worst thing in the world either. Also, I'd be much more concerned of a TAG checking this flop than him betting out. A TAG will bet and enormous range of hands with this flop after raising, he will typically only be checking if he is trying to be tricky. Maybe try a trap on the turn if you get raised on the flop, otherwise bet, bet, bet!

RESULTS
 

Thank you for the responses. I didn't like my play at all, for I went for the check-raise and should have just bet it through. Oh don't get me wrong, the check-raise worked but...

FLOP ACTION: BB checks, I check, TP bets, BB calls, I check-raise. TP pauses and calls as does BB. Three to the turn.

TURN: 6

BB checks, I bet, TP folds, BB calls. Headsup.

RIVER: 5

BB bets, I call.

BB shows 76o and hits his gutshot. I racked up and went to dinner at Mom's.

Merry Christmas to all.

Re: RESULTS
 

BB likely would've stayed in to the river anyways even if you bet out. Just because he won the pot, doesn't mean you played it wrong.

b

Re: AK flop decision - 20/40
 

With this read this flop is an easy check/raise, I can't imagine how so many players want to bet out.

When I read a post I assume the reads provided are correct, so while check/raising in this situation is wrong in general, it's obviously correct if we're confident TP will bet. If we bet and TP calls BB will be correct to call with any piece of the board (gut-shot, middle or bottom pair), while check/raising him will trap him for a big mistake.

Re: RESULTS
 

[ QUOTE ]
BB likely would've stayed in to the river anyways even if you bet out. Just because he won the pot, doesn't mean you played it wrong.

b

[/ QUOTE ]
Agreed. I love the way this flop was played, BB was making a mistake by calling both on the flop and the turn.

Re: RESULTS
 

[ QUOTE ]
Thank you for the responses. I didn't like my play at all, for I went for the check-raise and should have just bet it through. Oh don't get me wrong, the check-raise worked but...

FLOP ACTION: BB checks, I check, TP bets, BB calls, I check-raise. TP pauses and calls as does BB. Three to the turn.

TURN: 6

BB checks, I bet, TP folds, BB calls. Headsup.

RIVER: 5

BB bets, I call.

BB shows 76o and hits his gutshot. I racked up and went to dinner at Mom's.

Merry Christmas to all.

[/ QUOTE ]
Any time you induce your opponents to make mistakes, or they happen to make a mistaken on their own, you win. The results in the hand dont matter. You got the BB to pay 2 small bets to hit a gutshot on the turn when he barely had the odds to call one small bet, and then the BB went to the river which is clearly an unprofitable call.

I said I wouldve bet the flop with the intention of trapping on the turn given your read. You decided to use your read to trap the flop which is perfectly fine. I thought you played this hand extremely well as you were thinking on a higher level then most people in this situaiton. You may not like your play in this hand, but I think it is nothing short of excellent.

Re: RESULTS
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
BB likely would've stayed in to the river anyways even if you bet out. Just because he won the pot, doesn't mean you played it wrong.

b

[/ QUOTE ]
Agreed. I love the way this flop was played, BB was making a mistake by calling both on the flop and the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

He didn't make a mistake calling the turn.

b

Re: RESULTS
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
BB likely would've stayed in to the river anyways even if you bet out. Just because he won the pot, doesn't mean you played it wrong.

b

[/ QUOTE ]
Agreed. I love the way this flop was played, BB was making a mistake by calling both on the flop and the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

He didn't make a mistake calling the turn.

b

[/ QUOTE ]
You're correct. Still all streets were played well.

Re: RESULTS
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
BB likely would've stayed in to the river anyways even if you bet out. Just because he won the pot, doesn't mean you played it wrong.

b

[/ QUOTE ]
Agreed. I love the way this flop was played, BB was making a mistake by calling both on the flop and the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

He didn't make a mistake calling the turn.

b

[/ QUOTE ]
Oops, I didnt see that the BB paired the turn. Still a well played hand by the hero IMO.

Re: AK flop decision - 20/40
 

Thanks Nick, Westley & Bernie. Sometimes I need reassurance that although I lost the hand, I did the "best" play available at the time. Bernie made a good point about BB calling the flop regardless of the bets. I feel both plays (bet or check-raise) are fine, dependent on the situation. In my case, I was fairly confident the TP would bet, and he did, making the trap successful. The session, on the other hand, was not.

Re: AK flop decision - 20/40
 

This is an easy bet in my opinion. We are never positive here that TP is holding an Ace, and therefore it is way too dangerous to check here in hopes that he bets.

Re: AK flop decision - 20/40
 

[ QUOTE ]
In this spot I like betting the flop becuz if opens up a chance that I can trap the tight player on the turn for more money.

For example: Lets say I bet the flop and the tight player just calls, and the BB calls or folds. Since I would put the tight player on an ace, I would check the turn knowing the tight player will bet and then I will raise.

Also If I bet the flop and the tight player raised and the BB folded, I would just call and checkraise the turn. When out of position, 3 betting the flop and leading the turn is my usual line, but on this drawless of a board I prefer trapping the villain on the bigger streets.

If I bet the flop and the tight player raised, and the BB called, I would 3 bet right away since I have two donating customers, and there's no guarantee the BB will commit more money on the turn, so I'd rather charge him 3 bets now.

[/ QUOTE ]

This post sums it up perfectly, if you ask me.

Re: AK flop decision - 20/40
 

[ QUOTE ]
With this read this flop is an easy check/raise, I can't imagine how so many players want to bet out.

When I read a post I assume the reads provided are correct, so while check/raising in this situation is wrong in general, it's obviously correct if we're confident TP will bet. If we bet and TP calls BB will be correct to call with any piece of the board (gut-shot, middle or bottom pair), while check/raising him will trap him for a big mistake.

[/ QUOTE ]

I really disagree with this, Nick. Each time BB called, he had to call 1 bet, and was correct to do so. By betting out, TP might raise and that would charge BB two. Then his call would be a mistake. But because of OP's checkraise, BB was getting proper odds to overcall the flop then call the raise.

I'm not saying TP would have raised -- he likely would not -- but by trapping BB, all the OP is doing is keeping him in the pot with odds to draw, not getting him out or causing him to make a mathematical mistake by calling.

Re: RESULTS
 

The more I think about this situation the more I like the bet/3bet line. The question I have here though is this, whats the chances of TP raising with his ace? How confident are we on our read that he does have an ace and not a pocket pair. If he's the aggressive type I really like betting out in this situation to fold any draws. The problem with the board though is that there are only 3 gutshots available, 2/3, 5/6, and 7/6. With only 2 players in the pot its a rarity that someone actually have them in their holding specially since someone raised preflop.

Do we want to elimiate the gutshot in this situation or trap them? The answer is, we want to shut them out now. If we bet and TP raises the player with the gutshot is making a mistake by calling. We're calling the raise regardless and will make it 3bets if gutshots call. If I end up being headsup against TP I'll smooth call and c/raise the turn instead. I'm pretty sure he'll call the river if he has an ace too.

Re: AK flop decision - 20/40
 

[ QUOTE ]
I really disagree with this, Nick. Each time BB called, he had to call 1 bet, and was correct to do so. By betting out, TP might raise and that would charge BB two. Then his call would be a mistake. But because of OP's checkraise, BB was getting proper odds to overcall the flop then call the raise.

I'm not saying TP would have raised -- he likely would not -- but by trapping BB, all the OP is doing is keeping him in the pot with odds to draw, not getting him out or causing him to make a mathematical mistake by calling.

[/ QUOTE ]
I'm not trying to be a dick here, but this shows big flaws in your mathematical thinking. You should look at the odds he's actually getting to see the turn card (his first call is no good since it gets him no new card). The odds he got on the flop was 10.5:2, certainly not a good call for a gutshot. Thus he was making a pretty big mistake.

You can always argue betting out would be better and I agree the vast majority of the time betting out is better. You have to be very confident that the player behind will bet here for check/raising to be correct, but it seemed to me OP was.

Re: AK flop decision - 20/40
 

This is totally wrong and very basic. You really need to read TOP, i've seen you write these things time and time again. No offense.

Re: AK flop decision - 20/40
 

You guys need to realize the advanced level of fuzzy math I perform at the table. BB was actually getting 2.6:Cheney to call, which is more than enough considering his implied Gore odds. Fuzzy math rules. But it probably explains my downswing...

Re: AK flop decision - 20/40
 

[ QUOTE ]
This is totally wrong and very basic. You really need to read TOP, i've seen you write these things time and time again. No offense.

[/ QUOTE ]

With your thinking the correct play then shouldn't be to check-raise the flop, it should be to check-call the flop and bet the turn - keeping the size of the pot small so anyone who plays with a 4 outer is playing incorrectly.

Considering the action and the tight player who is likely to hold an A or a middle pair, the best results on the flop would be to bet while welcoming the possibility of a raise from the second to act player. Thats how it is best to protect his hand.

TT [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Re: AK flop decision - 20/40
 

[ QUOTE ]
I really disagree with this, Nick. Each time BB called, he had to call 1 bet, and was correct to do so. By betting out, TP might raise and that would charge BB two. Then his call would be a mistake. But because of OP's checkraise, BB was getting proper odds to overcall the flop then call the raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is a misconception IMO.

we factor this into our EV when we are going to call - it might get raised behind us, or if we're gonna call two cold, the original bettor might three bet etc. it cuts into our actual odds. if BB puts in two bets (which we know will happen, but he doesn't) then he made a mistake calling the first time even though he didn't know it.

functionally (from the perspective of the amount of bets going in), it's no different than us bet-calling and BB calling the two cold, if we assume he'd have the same range in both cases - which of course isnt the case.

since this isn't true in most cases, we should like to checkraise if he'll call multiple bets one at a time, trapping hands for multiple bets when they actually don't have odds. if in fact his putting two bets in on the flop is incorrect, we should take whatever action gets him to do that (and make a mistake). if it's correct, then we should take whatever action would get him to fold (and make a mistake). if that's checkraising or betting or whatever, yeah.

Re: AK flop decision - 20/40
 

[ QUOTE ]
This is totally wrong and very basic. You really need to read TOP, i've seen you write these things time and time again. No offense.

[/ QUOTE ]

good post, I was lost before but now I get it

P.S. sorry nothing personal I'm having a [censored] day.