when is it correct to call on the button?
 

I've been thinking about this lately. So far this is what I have came up with:

In the past I would raise KQo or AJo on the button no questions asked. But lets say there are 4 or 5 limpers to you and the blinds are very loose. So we can expect at least 7 people to see the flop.

I think this is a good spot to call rather than raise. My reasoning is as follows:

KQ or AJ are great hands, but offsuit they mainly rely on tpgk to win. With 6 or 7 people in the hand tpgk's chance of winning goes down. So if you raise you are bloating the pot, as most of the time everyone will call the raise as there already in for 1 bet. By bloating the pot you are letting gutshots and other 4 or 5 outers call you correctly. By just calling pf, you now keep the pot a little smaller and have a better chance of protecting your hand, or at least you can make people make mistakes by calling with out the odds.

This maybe common knowledge to some, but I have just lately thought about the reasoning behind it.

Also, if this is the correct play, how good of a hand do you want to raise in this spot, or how low do you go with a call vs a raise.

thoughts?

Re: when is it correct to call on the button?
 

Imo it depends on the range of hands that your opponents are limping with. Versus a bunch of players that play 30%+ of their hands, you have an equity edge that you should push, and I think it's pretty easy.

Versus, say, 2 early position rocks who play 10% of their hands and almost always limp, I'm less happy about raising because they could easily have me dominated if they're routintely limping with stuff like AQo.

But, in general, the fact that your AJo will win less often against loose players in multiway pots is more than made up for by the fact that you will win bigger pots when you do win, so raising preflop with these hands will make you more money. Imo the players you're playing against have to have a certain amount of skill before the concept starts to apply. How much skill they have to have is hotly debated, but in loose microlimit games I think it's pretty much always correct to raise here.

Re: when is it correct to call on the button?
 

[ QUOTE ]
In the past I would raise KQo or AJo on the button no questions asked. But lets say there are 4 or 5 limpers to you and the blinds are very loose. So we can expect at least 7 people to see the flop.

I think this is a good spot to call rather than raise. My reasoning is as follows:

KQ or AJ are great hands, but offsuit they mainly rely on tpgk to win. With 6 or 7 people in the hand tpgk's chance of winning goes down. So if you raise you are bloating the pot, as most of the time everyone will call the raise as there already in for 1 bet. By bloating the pot you are letting gutshots and other 4 or 5 outers call you correctly. By just calling pf, you now keep the pot a little smaller and have a better chance of protecting your hand, or at least you can make people make mistakes by calling with out the odds.

This maybe common knowledge to some, but I have just lately thought about the reasoning behind it.

Also, if this is the correct play, how good of a hand do you want to raise in this spot, or how low do you go with a call vs a raise.

thoughts?

[/ QUOTE ]

Your reasoning is flawed, imo.
Basically it comes down to this - if you are in a game with 4-5 limpers preflop, you are in a game where people are playing ridiculously bad hands. AJo and KQo a better hands than what they are playing and will win more than their fair share over time. Thus, we raise to make them put more money in the pot before they get to see whether they luckout and connect with a flop, knowning full well that even though sometimes some jacka[/i]ss will hit 2-pair over the long run we'll win far more than we lose.

Poker isn't always about winning smalls pots and being able protect our hands. It's about winning the most money. We build large pots when we have an edge, and we have an edge preflop with AJo and KQo against 6-7 people. (I know you laready know this...I'm just babbling)

Re: when is it correct to call on the button?
 

I agree, and I know you have to push your equity edge when you have it.

This is mainly just some thoughts I've had while laying in bed, is it sad that I think about poker before going to bed?

But, just for fun, lets say KJo, is this a call or do you raise it also. What hands do you limp in with on the button if any?

Also, what about raising a hand like JTs in my first example, this hand plays very well against lots of players, so we can build a huge pot for the times we have a great draw (ie. str8 and flush draws).

Re: when is it correct to call on the button?
 

[ QUOTE ]
This is mainly just some thoughts I've had while laying in bed, is it sad that I think about poker before going to bed?

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I can't tell you without knowing what your other options are.

[ QUOTE ]
But, just for fun, lets say KJo, is this a call or do you raise it also. What hands do you limp in with on the button if any?

[/ QUOTE ]

KJo on the button - really depends on the players who are limping in ahead of me. Usually I will limp along with them, though it has been a while since I've been in a game that was 7-handed to the flop. With one or two limpers and tight blinds, I raise KJo in a heartbeat. But, with 4-5 limpers and loose blinds, I see less value in raising.

[ QUOTE ]
Also, what about raising a hand like JTs in my first example, this hand plays very well against lots of players, so we can build a huge pot for the times we have a great draw (ie. str8 and flush draws).

[/ QUOTE ]

After 4-5 limper w/loose blinds I will raise JTs, T9s, and 98s on the button for exactly those reasons. The button gives us a huge positional advantage also, which we haven't mentioned yet.

Re: when is it correct to call on the button?
 

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[ QUOTE ]
This is mainly just some thoughts I've had while laying in bed, is it sad that I think about poker before going to bed?

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I can't tell you without knowing what your other options are.



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LMAO

Re: when is it correct to call on the button?
 

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What hands do you limp in with on the button if any?


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There are plenty of hands to limp in with on the button. It is all situational, but having the button doesn't mean an automatic raise if you are going to be in the hand. You need to consider your opponents - the limpers and the blinds.

Re: when is it correct to call on the button?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What hands do you limp in with on the button if any?


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There are plenty of hands to limp in with on the button. It is all situational, but having the button doesn't mean an automatic raise if you are going to be in the hand. You need to consider your opponents - the limpers and the blinds.

[/ QUOTE ]

quoted for emphasis. well said.

Re: when is it correct to call on the button?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This is mainly just some thoughts I've had while laying in bed, is it sad that I think about poker before going to bed?

[/ QUOTE ]

I can't tell you without knowing what your other options are.



[/ QUOTE ]

touché

Re: when is it correct to call on the button?
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This is mainly just some thoughts I've had while laying in bed, is it sad that I think about poker before going to bed?

[/ QUOTE ]

I can't tell you without knowing what your other options are.



[/ QUOTE ]

touché

[/ QUOTE ]

sorry, got a late start this morning and i'm still sucking down iced coffee like it's free...

Re: when is it correct to call on the button?
 

you got an equity edge, position and are playing against really bad players

uh raise

Re: when is it correct to call on the button?
 

There is a discussion of this topic in SSHE, and you're idea is a correct one. There are indeed times where it may be correct to give up a small preflop equity edge to increase the chances of opponents making mistakes after the flop.

If you've got a hand that plays well multiway like J-10s and above, this hand should be raised into a large field to give you the odds to draw to a gutshot and/or backdoor flush draw on the flop.

If you've got a hand that is weaker like A-Jo, while you do have some pre-flop equity against the weaker limpers, since this hand depends upon High card strength more, it may be better to limp, and wait until the flop to raise the hand if you hit TPTK for example. In this case the pair of J's is extremly vulnerable and the preflop raise will make it often correct for all opponents to draw on the flop for one bet.

I also find it's easier to give up weak draws with these semi-good hands when the pot is smaller which is another reason why limping on the button could be the correct play. Note, I'm talking about simply good hands here. I always raise the best hands when faced with many limpers in this situation.

Re: when is it correct to call on the button?
 

This is straight from HEFAP

[ QUOTE ]
When you hold big unsuited cards, your opponents are getting implied odds from you. Therefore, it is wrong to raise with unsuited high cards in multiway pots, and it may be right to fold hands like AT,KT, and even AJ and KJ.

Specifically, if you hold KTo on the button, and five or six players have limped in, you should strongly consider folding. Raising with this hand - which is a mistake frequently made by beginning players - will cost you money in the long run. Even calling might be wrong for all but the best players.

[/ QUOTE ]

So it appears that your reasoning is along the right lines.

Re: when is it correct to call on the button?
 

I also think my reasoning is on the right track.

But, the hard part is deciding when it is correct to call and when it is correct to limp. I guess it depends on the players in the game. If they will limp decent hands, like KQ or even AQ, which is not that uncommon. Then by me raising into a field of 6 or 7 with say AJ or KJ, I may not actually have the equity edge I think I have.

Re: when is it correct to call on the button?
 

seems to me that by raising in this situation, what you're essentially doing is giving the blinds a chance to make a mistake. the SB, for example, will call almost any 2 cards w/ 6 limpers, b/c he's getting 15:1 to see the flop, and the BB will get infininte odds, but if you raise, you cut those odds down a bit and increase the chances that a) they make a mistake, and b) they don't hit a lucky flop w/ their 72o.

plus, by raising you put yourself in control of the hand and it's much easier to see what sort of shape you're in by the time the flop comes around to you. (i.e. people have different motives for betting into a PFR on the flop before he acts). and hey, you might see the turn for free.

Re: when is it correct to call on the button?
 

I was going to quote Small Stakes Hold'Em, but then I realized I wanted to type most of 2 pages. So instead, let me direct you to pages 73 and 74.

VR(who routinely thinks about poker at bedtime, much to the irritation of her SO)

Re: when is it correct to call on the button?
 

[ QUOTE ]
I've been thinking about this lately. So far this is what I have came up with:

In the past I would raise KQo or AJo on the button no questions asked. But lets say there are 4 or 5 limpers to you and the blinds are very loose. So we can expect at least 7 people to see the flop.

I think this is a good spot to call rather than raise. My reasoning is as follows:

KQ or AJ are great hands, but offsuit they mainly rely on tpgk to win. With 6 or 7 people in the hand tpgk's chance of winning goes down. So if you raise you are bloating the pot, as most of the time everyone will call the raise as there already in for 1 bet. By bloating the pot you are letting gutshots and other 4 or 5 outers call you correctly. By just calling pf, you now keep the pot a little smaller and have a better chance of protecting your hand, or at least you can make people make mistakes by calling with out the odds.

This maybe common knowledge to some, but I have just lately thought about the reasoning behind it.

Also, if this is the correct play, how good of a hand do you want to raise in this spot, or how low do you go with a call vs a raise.

thoughts?

[/ QUOTE ]

I still tend to raise. However, your reasoning is good. If you know the limpers not to be completely terrible I think calling becomes the better alternative (with KQ and AJ). Given the same situation, I would be more inclined to raise in the CO or hijack than on the button.