Pretty common turn spot that I hate
 

villian is unknown.

Party Poker 30/60 Hold'em (6 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is SB with 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP raises</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP calls.

Flop: (7 SB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, MP calls.

Turn: (4.50 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero ???

Please give turn plan and river plan for diamond and non diamond rivers.

Re: Pretty common turn spot that I hate
 

I really hate b/cing this turn but I do it sometimes.

I think I like c/cing this turn more, then betting a diamond river, c/cing a non diamond (if we get bet both times)

If the turn is checked through I'm typically firing unless I have a read that I'm getting more value out of inducing a bluff (typically when the diamond hits).

Re: Pretty common turn spot that I hate
 

I'm thinking check/call, check/fold unimproved. Bet/fold a river diamond and checkraise a river 8.

Re: Pretty common turn spot that I hate
 

Def check-call turn- I don't see much value at all in a bet. Check-fold river unimproved.

Re: Pretty common turn spot that I hate
 

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I'm thinking check/call, check/fold unimproved. Bet/fold a river diamond and checkraise a river 8.

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I'm never bet/folding a diamond river against an unknown, ever. Bet/call.

Re: Pretty common turn spot that I hate
 

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I'm thinking check/call, check/fold unimproved. Bet/fold a river diamond and checkraise a river 8.

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Re: Pretty common turn spot that I hate
 

Actually, the more common situation is the same board, without a flush possibility.

In that case, I think I still bet the turn. But what happens if villain calls the turn and river doesn't help? Is that a safe c/f?

Re: Pretty common turn spot that I hate
 

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I'm thinking check/call, check/fold unimproved. Bet/fold a river diamond and checkraise a river 8.

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Im really surprised you guys are saying bet/fold a diamond.

Re: Pretty common turn spot that I hate
 

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I'm thinking check/call, check/fold unimproved. Bet/fold a river diamond and checkraise a river 8.

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Im really surprised you guys are saying bet/fold a diamond.

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Your hand is pretty transparent if you check/call the turn and then bet a 4 flush river, I dont see getting bluff raised (or smaller diamond) really, but I dont play the 30/60, so I could be way off

Re: Pretty common turn spot that I hate
 

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I'm thinking check/call, check/fold unimproved. Bet/fold a river diamond and checkraise a river 8.

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Im really surprised you guys are saying bet/fold a diamond.

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Your hand is pretty transparent if you check/call the turn and then bet a 4 flush river, I dont see getting bluff raised (or smaller diamond) really, but I dont play the 30/60, so I could be way off

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well if we check call the turn that implies that he bets the turn. there arent many hands that are gonna have a bigger diamond than us and bet the turn and raise the river.

edit-alobar has informed me that all im really doing here is making a case for betting vs checking. clarkmeisters theorem says bet/call not bet fold dammit!

Re: Pretty common turn spot that I hate
 

Considering villain raised pf, it's hard to see that he's going to have a 2 or 4 of diamonds in his hand. Possibly, he raised from MP with 55 or 77 (and one of them was a diamond). Seem more plausible that he raised with pocket Ts or Js (and therefore more likely that his flush is higher).

I am torn here about whether I could call a raise on the river, especially because it's such a bluff-inducing board. Is c/c the river (when diamond falls) so bad?

Re: Pretty common turn spot that I hate
 

People do all kinds of freaky deeky [censored] on 3 flush and 4 flush boards. Villain had better be damned well behaved for me to even think about folding here.

Re: Pretty common turn spot that I hate
 

I agree with you about how people behave with all those suits on the board. But doesn't that make it even more likely that we could induce a non-flush to bet the river, if we check?

Re: Pretty common turn spot that I hate
 

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I'm thinking check/call, check/fold unimproved. Bet/fold a river diamond and checkraise a river 8.

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Im really surprised you guys are saying bet/fold a diamond.

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I guess you could bet/call if you aren't comfortable with folding. I haven't played the 30 either so I'm not sure how the average unknown plays. I think he raises it is almost always KdQx or QxJd. A bluff or raise from a lower diamond don't really make sense though I suppose they could happen occasionally. I don't think it's common enough. But the difference isn't much.

Re: Pretty common turn spot that I hate
 

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I'm thinking check/call, check/fold unimproved. Bet/fold a river diamond and checkraise a river 8.

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Im really surprised you guys are saying bet/fold a diamond.

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Your hand is pretty transparent if you check/call the turn and then bet a 4 flush river, I dont see getting bluff raised (or smaller diamond) really, but I dont play the 30/60, so I could be way off

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well if we check call the turn that implies that he bets the turn. there arent many hands that are gonna have a bigger diamond than us and bet the turn and raise the river.

edit-alobar has informed me that all im really doing here is making a case for betting vs checking. clarkmeisters theorem says bet/call not bet fold dammit!

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Clark's theorem doesn't apply here. It is not for when you actually have the flush. It is also a bet fold line. Some discussion and links here.

Re: Pretty common turn spot that I hate
 

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I agree with you about how people behave with all those suits on the board. But doesn't that make it even more likely that we could induce a non-flush to bet the river, if we check?

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They're seperate events. He will check behind with a pair, so we must donk for value. If he raises he may be trying to move us off a better pair, a small flush, or just because he knows that if you raise on a four flush board people sometimes fold. We should call. Now, very little of that makes sense, but I don't expect my uknown opponents to act logically or in their best interests. I expect them to do random donkey [censored] because they are, by and large, random idiot donkeys.

Re: Pretty common turn spot that I hate
 

Bryce,

I'm confused when you say they are separate events.

Are you really saying that the same player who will check behind with a pair, is also likely to raise the river with the same holding? If he's the type to raise the river with his pair when we bet, can't we also count on him betting the river with his pair when we check?

Re: Pretty common turn spot that I hate
 

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Bryce,

I'm confused when you say they are separate events.

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The reasons we call or fold if we get raised on the river are completely unrelated to the reasons why we bet (how often we're raised by a better hand is a consideration, but betting is still easily the best play here).

As for the other part, the short answer is: "yes". Remember that betting is for value in relation to how often he will call us with a worse hand and calling a bet is concerned with how often we have a better hand in relation to the size of the pot. If I expected him to check behind with a pair often and raise as bluff only sometimes it is still possible for both the bet and the call to be correct (101 stuff, I know, but hopefully that'll give you an idea of what I mean by "independent").

Re: Pretty common turn spot that I hate
 

How do we play this if we don't have the fd?

Re: Pretty common turn spot that I hate
 

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How do we play this if we don't have the fd?

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Bet/fold, if you calls my bet, I c/f river.

Re: Pretty common turn spot that I hate
 

bet call the makes the most sense to me. pot is big so its good if you fold overs and straight draws. if raised you have a good draw hu so even when behind you are not losing much equity.

the line only breaks down against a guy capable of bluff raising and following through on the river.

Re: Pretty common turn spot that I hate
 

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It is not for when you actually have the flush.

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It doesn't matter what you have. Bet.

Re: Pretty common turn spot that I hate
 

Yeah I usually check/call the turn but this may not be right.

I haven't seen anybody say bet/fold the turn and I think this option is at least worth examining. Flush draws are pretty but they don't hit 80% of the time. This flush draw may wind up costing you money. So its equity is under a bet. I might be willing to trade that for bluff equity. Your opponent doesn't have the ace of diamonds.

Assuming he calls the turn bet, I'm unsure about the diamond river. Player/game dependent, and my hunch is the various options may have similar EV. If he calls he's likely to have a higher diamond and not a pair of aces. I probably check/call a diamond. I give up on a non diamond.

Re: Pretty common turn spot that I hate
 

Never mind above. Brainfart. Probably should call a turn raise getting 7-1 odds.

Re: Pretty common turn spot that I hate
 

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bet call the makes the most sense to me. pot is big so its good if you fold overs and straight draws. if raised you have a good draw hu so even when behind you are not losing much equity.

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I don't see villain having overs or straight draws on the turn after this action. In fact I don't think you're ahead of anything at all really he could realistically (which may not be the best way to hand read an unknown) play this way except 77. Check-call for an 8 or flush.

Re: Pretty common turn spot that I hate
 

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It is not for when you actually have the flush.

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It doesn't matter what you have. Bet.

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yeah thats what I thought. ty clark [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Pretty common turn spot that I hate
 

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It is not for when you actually have the flush.

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It doesn't matter what you have. Bet.

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yeah thats what I thought. ty clark [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

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Maybe we need the author to restate the theorem again. It seems to evolve into something different in every thread.

Re: Pretty common turn spot that I hate
 

all you really need is to understand the thought behind the theory.......you do not need to follow it blindly or wory about the exact details. it's just a strategy to help you deal with some betfolding situations.

Re: Pretty common turn spot that I hate
 

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bet call the makes the most sense to me. pot is big so its good if you fold overs and straight draws. if raised you have a good draw hu so even when behind you are not losing much equity.

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I don't see villain having overs or straight draws on the turn after this action. In fact I don't think you're ahead of anything at all really he could realistically (which may not be the best way to hand read an unknown) play this way except 77. Check-call for an 8 or flush.

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dude this guy has 2 cards as far as i can see.

Re: Pretty common turn spot that I hate
 

OK but they basically all have a pair (mainly higher than yours) or better at this point. Does a hand like KJ call this flop?