Something I think most players, me most of all, need to do more of ...
 

I think I made one pretty decent play tonight. It might even be a breakthrough for me, as I'm sure it was correct, though I can't imagine myself making it a year or more ago. First raiser is 23/11, reraiser is 22/9. Here's the hand:

Party Poker 50/100 Hold'em (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">4 folds, including Hero </font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB caps</font>, MP1 calls, MP2 calls.

Flop: (12.66 SB) K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, MP1 calls, MP2 calls.

Turn: (7.83 BB) 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, MP1 calls, MP2 folds.

River: (9.83 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">BB bets</font>, MP1 calls.

Final Pot: 11.83 BB

Re: Something I think most players, me most of all, need to do more of
 

standard.

Re: Something I think most players, me most of all, need to do more of ...
 

we talking limit here?

Re: Something I think most players, me most of all, need to do more of
 

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standard.

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Re: Something I think most players, me most of all, need to do more of
 

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standard.

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Re: Something I think most players, me most of all, need to do more of
 

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standard.

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Ahh but it's not.

Re: Something I think most players, me most of all, need to do more of
 

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standard.

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Ahh but it's not.

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I don't know why you try to make it into a genius play. I would fold in the same situation. Run some calculations on your equity after a tight raiser reraises another tight raiser and your jacks are not worth playing.

Re: Something I think most players, me most of all, need to do more of
 

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standard.

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Ahh but it's not.

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How so? This thread is really lacking in explanation.

Re: Something I think most players, me most of all, need to do more of
 

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standard.

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Ahh but it's not.

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I don't know why you try to make it into a genius play. I would fold in the same situation. Run some calculations on your equity after a tight raiser reraises another tight raiser and your jacks are not worth playing.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why must every single thread on these boards turn into a pissing contest? I'm not bragging, I'm not showing off, I'm not trying to make it into a "genius" play at all. It was a situation that came up where I would almost always hit "raise" in the past, or at *least* call and hope to spike a set, particularly since I could be in against two AKs. I don't know many players who would lay down JJ in this spot, even though it is a situation specifically addressed in HFAP and the equity is relatively easy to figure out. It's a group 1 hand, those don't come around two often, and I was facing two pretty aggro and relatively loose players. Sure, it's probably still right play to lay it down, but how often do you actually do it? Until that hand, I never had. If that means I suck in your eyes, so be it.

I thought it was a hand that people could maybe learn something from, or think about a little. It wasn't my intention to start a war with the annoying pricks on here who can't let a post go by without flaming it or assuming that the poster is just another dick out to brag about how awesome he is. That was never my intention.

Re: Something I think most players, me most of all, need to do more of
 

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standard.

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i have a lot to learn....

Re: Something I think most players, me most of all, need to do more of
 

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standard.

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Ahh but it's not.

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I don't know why you try to make it into a genius play. I would fold in the same situation. Run some calculations on your equity after a tight raiser reraises another tight raiser and your jacks are not worth playing.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why must every single thread on these boards turn into a pissing contest? I'm not bragging, I'm not showing off, I'm not trying to make it into a "genius" play at all. It was a situation that came up where I would almost always hit "raise" in the past, or at *least* call and hope to spike a set, particularly since I could be in against two AKs. I don't know many players who would lay down JJ in this spot, even though it is a situation specifically addressed in HFAP and the equity is relatively easy to figure out. It's a group 1 hand, those don't come around two often, and I was facing two pretty aggro and relatively loose players. Sure, it's probably still right play to lay it down, but how often do you actually do it? Until that hand, I never had. If that means I suck in your eyes, so be it.

I thought it was a hand that people could maybe learn something from, or think about a little. It wasn't my intention to start a war with the annoying pricks on here who can't let a post go by without flaming it or assuming that the poster is just another dick out to brag about how awesome he is. That was never my intention.

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No intention of starting such a war. When you denied it was standard, it sounded like you thought there was something extraordinary with it. It is standard.

Re: Something I think most players, me most of all, need to do more of
 

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standard.

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Ahh but it's not.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know why you try to make it into a genius play. I would fold in the same situation. Run some calculations on your equity after a tight raiser reraises another tight raiser and your jacks are not worth playing.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why must every single thread on these boards turn into a pissing contest? I'm not bragging, I'm not showing off, I'm not trying to make it into a "genius" play at all. It was a situation that came up where I would almost always hit "raise" in the past, or at *least* call and hope to spike a set, particularly since I could be in against two AKs. I don't know many players who would lay down JJ in this spot, even though it is a situation specifically addressed in HFAP and the equity is relatively easy to figure out. It's a group 1 hand, those don't come around two often, and I was facing two pretty aggro and relatively loose players. Sure, it's probably still right play to lay it down, but how often do you actually do it? Until that hand, I never had. If that means I suck in your eyes, so be it.

I thought it was a hand that people could maybe learn something from, or think about a little. It wasn't my intention to start a war with the annoying pricks on here who can't let a post go by without flaming it or assuming that the poster is just another dick out to brag about how awesome he is. That was never my intention.

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No intention of starting such a war. When you denied it was standard, it sounded like you thought there was something extraordinary with it. It is standard.

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I don't think it is. I think perhaps it's theoretically standard, but it's a play that almost never gets made.

Re: Something I think most players, me most of all, need to do more of
 

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I don't think it is. I think perhaps it's theoretically standard, but it's a play that almost never gets made.

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Yes, because most players fail to adjust to their opponents. I haven't played 50/100, but I would guess the game is so tough that this is a necessity to come out a winner (no universal winning strategy).

Re: Something I think most players, me most of all, need to do more of
 

This really is quite a standard play.

Against those opponents from EP/MP positiong raising and 3-betting I don't see how why you would want to play JJ there.


I also don't understand the distinction you are trying to make with 'theoretically correct'.


And I definitely don't understand your point about it being a play that you 'hardly ever see made'.
TAG-gish 2+2'ers would make this play against those opponents all the time I would suspect.
Since they aren't open-folding their hands so that everybody can see them how does one claim that it's a play you hardly ever see made?


It's pretty standard...and the 2+2'ers here are agreeing that it's standard...and you are getting defensive about it because nobody seems to think it is as great a play as you thought.

Re: Something I think most players, me most of all, need to do more of ...
 

no chance id fold JJ here, so there you go. at least someone disagrees

2 aggressive MP raisers who you have position on, and you want to fold the 4th best hand in the game? [censored] that. cap it up

Re: Something I think most players, me most of all, need to do more of
 

I cap.
-James

Re: Something I think most players, me most of all, need to do more of
 

Hmmm, I know you two last responders are good players (much better than me), so please elaborate on how the cap is good (I might end up learning something from this contentless thread [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]). I just don't see the value of it.

Re: Something I think most players, me most of all, need to do more of
 

now that you mention it.....


I played a limit tourney (PPM semi's) a couple weeks ago.

I get JJ in MLP.

Loose guy UTG+1 raises, 2+2'er in UTG+2 makes it 3-bets.


I fold my JJ but right-away I didn't feel too good about it.

You see, I was just looking at the 2+2'er who 3-bet it....wasn't thinking that he was just iso'ing the loose guy (who I wasn't paying attention to).


To be results-oriented about that hand:
flop came undercards. and i think the board stayed low throughout.
The 2+2'ers TT holds up against LAG's unimproved AK.

Even before learning I would have won I knew I made a mistake. easily worth playing if I had considered the LAG.



but in the OP's hand, neither of these guys are super-duper loose raisers or anything and I would fold JJ unless I had some kind of read that contradicted the stats.

Re: Something I think most players, me most of all, need to do more of
 

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Hmmm, I know you two last responders are good players (much better than me), so please elaborate on how the cap is good (I might end up learning something from this contentless thread [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]). I just don't see the value of it.

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PFR 11 raises MP1. This is AT+, 77+, KQ, sometimes QJs. PFR 9 3 bets. This is TT(maybe even 99 or 88!)+, AQ+. I have position. I will flop an overpair or a set 60 percent of the time. I play better than my opponents. I can't only cap aces and kings or my opponents will know I have aces or kings in a game with a relatively small player pool. People raise and three-bet more lightly in bigger games. That's my explanation.
-James

Re: Something I think most players, me most of all, need to do more of ...
 

I am not really sure how you can get away from this hand preflop unless you know for sure you are up against AA-QQ. This is a no doubt cap for me. In the long term this hand will make plenty of money in situations such as these. You gotta be in it to win!

Re: Something I think most players, me most of all, need to do more of
 

okay....i'm seeing the light.



additionally....you might be able to steal it from QQ if any K or A hits the flop. But you'd have to be pretty lucky here of course...like K-high flop and your opponents have QQ and AQ.

Or A-high flop and your opponents have KQ and KK (and would actually be subject to laying down an under-pair...which isn't that impossible if you cap PF).


This isn't the reason to cap of coruse. Just pointing out that it doesn't HAVE to be an all under-card flop for you to win it obviously....there are still some slim possibilities even with an overcard out there.

Re: Something I think most players, me most of all, need to do more of
 

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[ QUOTE ]
Hmmm, I know you two last responders are good players (much better than me), so please elaborate on how the cap is good (I might end up learning something from this contentless thread [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]). I just don't see the value of it.

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PFR 11 raises MP1. This is AT+, 77+, KQ, sometimes QJs. PFR 9 3 bets. This is TT(maybe even 99 or 88!)+, AQ+. I have position. I will flop an overpair or a set 60 percent of the time. I play better than my opponents. I can't only cap aces and kings or my opponents will know I have aces or kings in a game with a relatively small player pool. People raise and three-bet more lightly in bigger games. That's my explanation.
-James

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I agree with all of this. I was really shocked seeing so many people say folding was standard here.

Re: Something I think most players, me most of all, need to do more of ...
 

NOt sure what the controversy is - it's either a cap, or a fold, and I don't see much difference between the two. It's player relevant more than anything else - if the reraise comes from a guy I think is steaming a little, I cap, if he has been docile for the last ten minutes, I fold unless I know both of them will ride their cards to the river if I hit. BFD

Dogmeat [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

Re: Something I think most players, me most of all, need to do more of ...
 

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it's either a cap, or a fold, and I don't see much difference between the two.

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I think there is a big difference.

Re: Something I think most players, me most of all, need to do more of
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Hmmm, I know you two last responders are good players (much better than me), so please elaborate on how the cap is good (I might end up learning something from this contentless thread [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]). I just don't see the value of it.

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PFR 11 raises MP1. This is AT+, 77+, KQ, sometimes QJs. PFR 9 3 bets. This is TT(maybe even 99 or 88!)+, AQ+. I have position. I will flop an overpair or a set 60 percent of the time. I play better than my opponents. I can't only cap aces and kings or my opponents will know I have aces or kings in a game with a relatively small player pool. People raise and three-bet more lightly in bigger games. That's my explanation.
-James

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I think this scenario really separates the looser TAGs and the tigher TAGs. Most of us don't play in games with small player pools and the metagame stuff doesn't really apply. I think your hand ranges may be a bit too broad given that the raisers were both in early position.

Didn't David and Mason cover this in one of their books? I recall them saying fold but I can't find it and don't feel like digging.

Pretty close given your hand ranges.

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 26.9092 % 25.75% 01.15% { 77+, A9s+, KTs+, QTs+, AJo+, KQo }
Hand 2: 38.3336 % 36.91% 01.42% { 99+, AQs+, AKo }
Hand 3: 34.7572 % 33.90% 00.86% { JJ }

Re: Something I think most players, me most of all, need to do more of ...
 

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it's either a cap, or a fold, and I don't see much difference between the two.

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I think there is a big difference.

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Oh Mr. Moderator, since I see little difference in the two, rather than stating your opinion - how about adding some insight as to which is the clear choice and why - please enlighten me.

Dogmeat [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

Re: Something I think most players, me most of all, need to do more of
 

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NOt sure what the controversy is - it's either a cap, or a fold, and I don't see much difference between the two. It's player relevant more than anything else - if the reraise comes from a guy I think is steaming a little, I cap, if he has been docile for the last ten minutes, I fold unless I know both of them will ride their cards to the river if I hit. BFD

Dogmeat [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

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I certainly do not put folding ahead of calling.

Re: Something I think most players, me most of all, need to do more of ...
 

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First raiser is 23/11, reraiser is 22/9

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These two numbers have little to no relevance as to whether you should play your jacks here. If you are multitabling and thats all you know about them, you should fold. If you are one tabling and have more information about how they play postflop, you should play.

Basically, what you need to know is how these two players play "misses". If they pound their AK/AQ type hands after missing, if they bet them once, then give up, etc. If you have that information, you can play the jacks profitably. If all you know is that they play 22% of their hands and raise 9%, you can't, because you will just be guessing postflop.

Re: Something I think most players, me most of all, need to do more of
 

[ QUOTE ]
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Hmmm, I know you two last responders are good players (much better than me), so please elaborate on how the cap is good (I might end up learning something from this contentless thread [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]). I just don't see the value of it.

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PFR 11 raises MP1. This is AT+, 77+, KQ, sometimes QJs. PFR 9 3 bets. This is TT(maybe even 99 or 88!)+, AQ+. I have position. I will flop an overpair or a set 60 percent of the time. I play better than my opponents. I can't only cap aces and kings or my opponents will know I have aces or kings in a game with a relatively small player pool. People raise and three-bet more lightly in bigger games. That's my explanation.
-James

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I think this scenario really separates the looser TAGs and the tigher TAGs. Most of us don't play in games with small player pools and the metagame stuff doesn't really apply. I think your hand ranges may be a bit too broad given that the raisers were both in early position.

Didn't David and Mason cover this in one of their books? I recall them saying fold but I can't find it and don't feel like digging.

Pretty close given your hand ranges.

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand 1: 26.9092 % 25.75% 01.15% { 77+, A9s+, KTs+, QTs+, AJo+, KQo }
Hand 2: 38.3336 % 36.91% 01.42% { 99+, AQs+, AKo }
Hand 3: 34.7572 % 33.90% 00.86% { JJ }

[/ QUOTE ]

But online 50/100 games have far smaller player pools than lower limits from this, and that is the game that the OP cited. David and Mason were also referring to the live games of the nineties and earlier that played far less aggressively preflop on average than today's high limit online games.

Also, your EV calculations are helpful, but also misleading because they run hot and cold. For example, a lot of times AT or AJ will check fold the flop when it comes Q high against your jacks. Position and momentum go a long way even in high limit games. You can win a hand without reaching the showdown against every hand that saw the flop.

Do I fold jacks to a raise and a 3 bet from time to time? Yes, I do. Do I when a guy raises in middle position and another guy reraises in late middle position? Not as often, but I will. I am simply stating that when I play 50/100 and higher, and all I know about my opponents are those stats, I'm in there capping, if only because it's(at worst) an EV neutral proposition and it works towards giving me the aggressive image I benefit from at the table.
-James

Re: Something I think most players, me most of all, need to do more of ...
 

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it's either a cap, or a fold, and I don't see much difference between the two.

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I think there is a big difference.

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Oh Mr. Moderator, since I see little difference in the two, rather than stating your opinion - how about adding some insight as to which is the clear choice and why - please enlighten me.

Dogmeat [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

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1) Relax
2) I think saying that folding and cold capping are about the same needs a lot more explanation than saying that they aren't.

Re: Something I think most players, me most of all, need to do more of
 

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I cap.
-James

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Thanks god.

I've folded JJ before and would do it again, but not in this game, not in this situation.

Rob

Re: Something I think most players, me most of all, need to do more of
 

interesting. just emailed pat that pt needs a 3bet and capping stat. or does one exist/can i calc this info from other stats quickly at the tables?

Re: Something I think most players, me most of all, need to do more of
 

I'm happy to see some discussion on this. It's been a really informative thread.

Re: Something I think most players, me most of all, need to do more of ...
 

Depends on who the raisers are. For more tighter raisers, yes. Just like folding AKo in this spot. But against looser raisers and reraisers? No. It's not standard to fold here.

b

Re: Something I think most players, me most of all, need to do more of ...
 

From your two posts I've concluded you should get your money back from your schooling where you got your master's in math and that you suck at life.

Re: Something I think most players, me most of all, need to do more of ...
 

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From your two posts I've concluded you should get your money back from your schooling where you got your master's in math and that you suck at life.

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I don't need the refund since I saved so much dodging the QQ and KK I was up against in this hand.

Re: Something I think most players, me most of all, need to do more of ...
 

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From your two posts I've concluded you should get your money back from your schooling where you got your master's in math and that you suck at life.

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I don't need the refund since I saved so much dodging the QQ and KK I was up against in this hand.

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Huge dodge genius. Even before I knew how to play poker I would have made this fold. Also, it makes sense that your education only costs the amount you would have lost if you played this hand.

Re: Something I think most players, me most of all, need to do more of
 

Why did you change the limit from 15/30 to 50/100? You do this a lot and you never change the pot size.

Next time when your first line is
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Party Poker 50/100

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Your pot on the flop should not be
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12.66 SB

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Stop changing the limits or stop playing in games with different blind structures than the games you wish you were playing in.

Re: Something I think most players, me most of all, need to do more of
 

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Why did you change the limit from 15/30 to 50/100? You do this a lot and you never change the pot size.

Next time when your first line is
[ QUOTE ]
Party Poker 50/100

[/ QUOTE ]
Your pot on the flop should not be
[ QUOTE ]
12.66 SB

[/ QUOTE ]

Stop changing the limits or stop playing in games with different blind structures than the games you wish you were playing in.

[/ QUOTE ]

HAHAHA AWESOME.

Re: Something I think most players, me most of all, need to do more of
 

lol, BUSTED