First time I thought about laying down Kings preflop
 

Stupid converter...

#Game No : 3203757646
***** Hand History for Game 3203757646 *****
NL Texas Hold'em $30 Buy-in + $3 Entry Fee Trny:18292789 Level:2 Blinds(15/30) - Thursday, December 15, 01:55:15 EDT 2005
Table Table 67469 (Real Money)
Seat 8 is the button
Total number of players : 9
Seat 1: AAAMAN1 ( $1035 )
Seat 2: BettaFold110 ( $2005 )
Seat 3: QuasiFiction ( $725 )
Seat 5: Scuba_Chuck ( $800 )
Seat 6: underpar24 ( $865 )
Seat 7: Deevilicious ( $425 )
Seat 8: LuckyAustin4 ( $835 )
Seat 9: CartmansMom ( $385 )
Seat 10: jsa714 ( $925 )
Trny:18292789 Level:2
Blinds(15/30)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Scuba_Chuck [ Kc Kd ]
AAAMAN1 raises [85].
BettaFold110 folds.
QuasiFiction raises [200].
Scuba_Chuck .....

Just in case any of you don't know, QuasiFiction is #4 on the leaderboard, and he plays the $33s (I'm guessing a ton).

Re: First time I thought about laying down Kings preflop
 

It's fine to think this, but it's probably a bad idea to actually fold. It could just as easily be QQ.

Re: First time I thought about laying down Kings preflop
 

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It's fine to think this, but it's probably a bad idea to actually fold. It could just as easily be QQ.

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His range is what?
I'm what against his range?

(Furthermore, which I know this is never correct to do, but my instincts were that he had AA/KK here).

Re: First time I thought about laying down Kings preflop
 

I suppose his range would be AA-QQ and possibly AK? Those are the only hands I would consider raising to 200 with.

Re: First time I thought about laying down Kings preflop
 

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I suppose his range would be AA-QQ and possibly AK? Those are the only hands I would consider raising to 200 with.

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Well, I'm certain, not positive, but I'm pretty damn certain, AK is not in that range here. Splash, you play more aggressive with AK than others. I've seen that out of you.

Re: First time I thought about laying down Kings preflop
 

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I suppose his range would be AA-QQ and possibly AK? Those are the only hands I would consider raising to 200 with.

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Well, I'm certain, not positive, but I'm pretty damn certain, AK is not in that range here. Splash, you play more aggressive with AK than others. I've seen that out of you.

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Yea...depends on what mood I'm in, haha. I don't know if my aggressiveness is a good thing or a leak though.

Re: First time I thought about laying down Kings preflop
 

I'd say the raiser's range really depends on AAAMAN's profile so far. Against a super-LAG, my reraising range could be as loose as AJs+,AQo+,99+. KK plays pretty well against that. On the other hand, if the original raiser is a tightish player, my overcalling range could be as tight as AA/KK only, and even KK would make me stop to think.

Re: First time I thought about laying down Kings preflop
 

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I'd say the raiser's range really depends on AAAMAN's profile so far. Against a super-LAG, my reraising range could be as loose as AJs+,AQo+,99+. KK plays pretty well against that. On the other hand, if the original raiser is a tightish player, my overcalling range could be as tight as AA/KK only, and even KK would make me stop to think.

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Wow, that is one huge range. You really think he'd reraise with 99 or AJs? I wouldn't even open raise those hands at this level.

Re: First time I thought about laying down Kings preflop
 

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It's fine to think this, but it's probably a bad idea to actually fold. It could just as easily be QQ.

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I'm bored tonight and pissed off due to my own mental lapse so I'm gonna flame somebody and it may as well be you (sorry):

No, it can't be QQ. What good player does this near minimum pot odds reraise crap with QQ? Give me a break.

It miiiiight be AK (I've seen it played this way as sort of a semibluff) or little to nothing if he decided he wanted 85 chips. (I'm not saying there's a good chance of that, I'm saying it's theoretically possible.) But it's not QQ unless he misclicked.

I'm probably not folding this, BTW.

edit: 99? 99??? Come ON, he's number 4 on the leaderboard and you think he makes an 85 chip bet 200 with 99?

Re: First time I thought about laying down Kings preflop
 

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Stupid converter...

#Game No : 3203757646
***** Hand History for Game 3203757646 *****
NL Texas Hold'em $30 Buy-in + $3 Entry Fee Trny:18292789 Level:2 Blinds(15/30) - Thursday, December 15, 01:55:15 EDT 2005
Table Table 67469 (Real Money)
Seat 8 is the button
Total number of players : 9
Seat 1: AAAMAN1 ( $1035 )
Seat 2: BettaFold110 ( $2005 )
Seat 3: QuasiFiction ( $725 )
Seat 5: Scuba_Chuck ( $800 )
Seat 6: underpar24 ( $865 )
Seat 7: Deevilicious ( $425 )
Seat 8: LuckyAustin4 ( $835 )
Seat 9: CartmansMom ( $385 )
Seat 10: jsa714 ( $925 )
Trny:18292789 Level:2
Blinds(15/30)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Scuba_Chuck [ Kc Kd ]
AAAMAN1 raises [85].
BettaFold110 folds.
QuasiFiction raises [200].
Scuba_Chuck .....

Just in case any of you don't know, QuasiFiction is #4 on the leaderboard, and he plays the $33s (I'm guessing a ton).

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Quasi is definitely one of the better players in the 33s. I'd put his range here at AA-mayyyyyybeQQ, sometimes AK, although I'd have to look through my db to see how he's played AK in the past. I'm never folding KK on lvl 2 of an 800 chip game, so I don't think it really matters.

Re: First time I thought about laying down Kings preflop
 

In quasi's shoes, a player (AAAMAN in this case) with 70% VPIP and 35% PFR is just asking to be isolated. 99 and AJs are both good enough for me to play for all my chips at any point against the top 35% of hands. I would be re-raising to isolate at that point. On the other hand, with no read or anything other than a super-LAG read, my reraising range is probably more like AKs,JJ+, and KK still plays just fine against those.

It's never a fold, but it's not an easy spot.

Re: First time I thought about laying down Kings preflop
 

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No, it can't be QQ. What good player does this near minimum pot odds reraise crap with QQ? Give me a break.


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These are my thoughts about QQ as well, which leads me to believe that I'm narrowing his hand range down to 2 hands. If you believe this as well (which I can't tell), why wouldn't you fold this?

Re: First time I thought about laying down Kings preflop
 

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I'm bored tonight and pissed off due to my own mental lapse

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My own advice is quit chasing the honeybees on the BJ leaderboard. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Re: First time I thought about laying down Kings preflop
 

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I'm never folding KK on lvl 2 of an 800 chip game, so I don't think it really matters.

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That's how I think too. It was just one of those situations where my hunch was I was behind or tied. These situations don't happen all that often, but when they do, I'm right more often than I am wrong. Bleh.

Re: First time I thought about laying down Kings preflop
 

99 is something like a 61% favorite against a top-35% range. A 61% favorite is good enough for me to take all the way at any stage of the tournament and anyone who suggests otherwise is either a +40% ROI player long-term at that level or they're being an idiot.

If the original raiser is not a super-LAG, no way I'm raising 99, as previously stated.

The other players at the table, in a 33, don't usually know the difference between a 3:1 call and a 1:1 call, so raising the absolute minimum that looks big is plenty to avoid going broke with JJ/AKo against a player behind with KK who (rightly) pushes over your raise.

I only threw 99 out there as an extreme to show that KK holds up against any range of hands I can give to quasi no matter what the read on AAAMAN.

Re: First time I thought about laying down Kings preflop
 

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99 is something like a 61% favorite against a top-35% range. A 61% favorite is good enough for me to take all the way at any stage of the tournament and anyone who suggests otherwise is either a +40% ROI player long-term at that level or they're being an idiot.

If the original raiser is not a super-LAG, no way I'm raising 99, as previously stated.

The other players at the table, in a 33, don't usually know the difference between a 3:1 call and a 1:1 call, so raising the absolute minimum that looks big is plenty to avoid going broke with JJ/AKo against a player behind with KK who (rightly) pushes over your raise.

I only threw 99 out there as an extreme to show that KK holds up against any range of hands I can give to quasi no matter what the read on AAAMAN.

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Would you openraise that range if it was folded to you? Because you're still in EP/MP. Sucky position, a lot can happen behind you (like people going all-in with KK). I think it's better to only isolate LAGs when you're in late position, and then it would have to be a real LAG. Am I wrong here?

Re: First time I thought about laying down Kings preflop
 

If you know that hes a very good/tight player, folding probably isnt that bad. In fact based on what you said it may even be correct, but Id really have to know the player myself to make such a statement. There are players where I would definitely fold KK if this were the action in front of me. Fortunately it hasnt come up yet.

Re: First time I thought about laying down Kings preflop
 

Did you fold?

I have never folded KK preflp but should/could have a couple times.

One time was simliar to this hand in the 22s vs a good 2+2er.

I pretty much knew in my mind he had AA but I called anyway.

Re: First time I thought about laying down Kings preflop
 

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It's fine to think this, but it's probably a bad idea to actually fold. It could just as easily be QQ.

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I'm bored tonight and pissed off due to my own mental lapse so I'm gonna flame somebody and it may as well be you (sorry):

No, it can't be QQ. What good player does this near minimum pot odds reraise crap with QQ? Give me a break.

It miiiiight be AK (I've seen it played this way as sort of a semibluff) or little to nothing if he decided he wanted 85 chips. (I'm not saying there's a good chance of that, I'm saying it's theoretically possible.) But it's not QQ unless he misclicked.



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ok, got you to here...

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I'm probably not folding this, BTW.



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huh? are you hoping to chop with the other KK?

Re: First time I thought about laying down Kings preflop
 

Aside from meaning he's not losing, why do you think being on the leaderboard means he's good?

I could fold QQ here, but I need to know him better than just being on the leaderboard to fold KK.

My best piece of info would be if I had a note on him. You don't have it this time, but if this went to showdown you should have one now. I've got a lot of notes that say "Played like AA, was AK" or "Played like AA, was AA" or some such.

Re: First time I thought about laying down Kings preflop
 

I would not open-raise 99 in level 2 there. In this situation, a player has opened for a typical raise and gotten a smallish reraise from a player we can safely label as "good." Everybody so far seems to want to put the reraiser on a very tight range because of the pot odds he's giving the original raiser and everyone behind him to call. Most of the players at the 33's have little to no understanding of pot odds, and I think a good 33's player knows that and adjusts accordingly. A proper adjustment would be to reraise a range of hands that safely beats the opener's raising range (not saying what that is yet), but not so much as to get stacked by a powerhouse hand.

Of course, this all depends on the read on the open-raiser. If he's raising 35% of the first 15-20 hands, I think it would be correct to reraise whatever range beats the top 35% of hands by a healthy amount. If he's raising 0-5% of the first 15-20 hands, then a reraise would only be appropriate with AA/KK and some percentage of "semi-bluff" AKs, TT-QQ as adanthar said.

Now back to Scuba with KK. Certainly, if he thinks quasi is trying to isolate a LAG with a wider range than would normally be smart against a tighter player, he should play his KK without hesitation. I used 99+ as the very widest range I thought quasi could possibly be playing here in the extreme example that AAAMAN was a super-LAG and quasi was feeling bold. The other extreme is AA/KK/??, and I think the ?? happens enough of the time to still not be able to fold KK here, although it's probably close.

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I think it's better to only isolate LAGs when you're in late position, and then it would have to be a real LAG. Am I wrong here?

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I agree, later position would be better and he would have to be a really fat LAG. I'm not saying I'd make an isolation move this daring, but I'm not #4 on the leaderboard, so shows what I know.

Re: First time I thought about laying down Kings preflop
 

Keep in mind that Quasi likely has 10 tables going. I've played 15 tourneys with him and in the early levels he is a 6/4 vp/pfr. I kinda doubt he has to much of a read on original raiser. I have to go with scuba here that his bet can only be AA/KK.

Re: First time I thought about laying down Kings preflop
 

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Keep in mind that Quasi likely has 10 tables going. I've played 15 tourneys with him and in the early levels he is a 6/4 vp/pfr. I kinda doubt he has to much of a read on original raiser. I have to go with scuba here that his bet can only be AA/KK.

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Yeah, I've got over 1200 hands played with him, and your stats reflect my "feel" for him. BTW, I'm guessing quasi is a 2er....

Re: First time I thought about laying down Kings preflop
 

Do we get to know the result?

Re: First time I thought about laying down Kings preflop
 

I pushed, because it is standard for me. The hand actually gets worse from there. 500ish stack behinid me insta-calls, and utg thinks forever, and says I'm laying down QQ. Quasi calls with his bullets, and he has no worries because the 500-ish stack also has kings.

Re: First time I thought about laying down Kings preflop
 

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My best piece of info would be if I had a note on him. You don't have it this time, but if this went to showdown you should have one now. I've got a lot of notes that say "Played like AA, was AK" or "Played like AA, was AA" or some such.

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That would be half of why I wouldn't fold, the chance that he has AK/nothing being the other half.

I'd call, see a flop, and decide there (yes, there are some aceless flops I would simply fold on.)

Re: First time I thought about laying down Kings preflop
 

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I pushed, because it is standard for me. The hand actually gets worse from there. 500ish stack behinid me insta-calls, and utg thinks forever, and says I'm laying down QQ. Quasi calls with his bullets, and he has no worries because the 500-ish stack also has kings.

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Then the board came AQJT9, yeah..? [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: First time I thought about laying down Kings preflop
 

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I pushed, because it is standard for me. The hand actually gets worse from there. 500ish stack behinid me insta-calls, and utg thinks forever, and says I'm laying down QQ. Quasi calls with his bullets, and he has no worries because the 500-ish stack also has kings.

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Then the board came AQJT<font color="red"> A </font> , yeah..? [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

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FYP because Party is rigg3d.

Re: First time I thought about laying down Kings preflop
 

Heh. Well I was going to say A2QJT.

Re: First time I thought about laying down Kings preflop
 

I would fold this against Quasi. He's very tight and straightforward early. But then again I've folded KK twice preflop (neither time on the bubble) in the last week, so I may overdo it a bit.

Re: First time I thought about laying down Kings preflop
 

If Harrington doesn't lie and says he is not good enough to ever fold KK PF (or have a good enough read, I forget how the said it), and you have folded them in $22 SnGs twice on the last week, you may be giving opponents too much credit. (Even good oponents)

Re: First time I thought about laying down Kings preflop
 

Wow, 6/4 is tight even for a 10-tabler. It probably means he's not making a lot of fancy plays early on... Still, this seems like the extreme case (no read on the raiser, super-tight reraiser) and I still can't convince myself the pure AA read is correct enough of the time to make me lay down KK preflop in an 800-chip Party SNG.

Re: First time I thought about laying down Kings preflop
 

Ship it! I thought that you posted this because you ended up calling and he didnt have AA, and were going to give a lecture on how to always call! Despite that I stood by my guns and said I'd fold and was correct. Some people telegraph AA so badly that if they ever do when Im at the table, I will fold KK, and there is really no way they can use this information to specifically take advantage of me.

For the most part I can predict when someone has AA-KK for sure with a very high accuracy. What I mean is that when Im super confident that a player has it, Im usually correct. This always has to be a player that I know is solid/good, because random players do crazy min raises with 65s.

Re: First time I thought about laying down Kings preflop
 

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If Harrington doesn't lie and says he is not good enough to ever fold KK PF (or have a good enough read, I forget how the said it), and you have folded them in $22 SnGs twice on the last week, you may be giving opponents too much credit. (Even good oponents)

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I am sure Harrington is lying and has folded KK preflop many times.

Re: First time I thought about laying down Kings preflop
 

Haha, probably.

Re: First time I thought about laying down Kings preflop
 

I will be a better player when I can say I can fold KK PF.

The problem is, when I want to fold, they often have AA like I thought, but at least 50% of the time, they have AK, QQ or worse.

So, I guess my read has to be really, really right to consider folding.

Re: First time I thought about laying down Kings preflop
 

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The problem is, when I want to fold, they often have AA like I thought, but at least 50% of the time, they have AK, QQ or worse.


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More like 75% and I'd shoot that hand range to AQo in the 22s. I remember reading somewhere that the most common hand for people busting out of the ME on day 1 was KK, or that was the perception.

Re: First time I thought about laying down Kings preflop
 

Has anyone except maybe Hellmuth ever made a televised fold of KK preflop?

Re: First time I thought about laying down Kings preflop
 

I have to admit, that it's kind of cool to think that I could laydown KK preflop in a situation like this. It's too bad I have yet to have the balls to do so.

Ilya, are you quasi?

Re: First time I thought about laying down Kings preflop
 

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I have to admit, that it's kind of cool to think that I could laydown KK preflop in a situation like this. It's too bad I have yet to have the balls to do so.

Ilya, are you quasi?

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I thought exactly the same thing when I read his post [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]