Nut flush draw w/ mid pair....
 

Here's the situation:

Live game. 7-handed, $20 buyin, .25/50 blinds

Hero is holding A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] in MP.

One limper in front of me, I make it 1.50 to go.
Everyone folds except the big blind, who just calls.

Villain is very aggressive, but not an awful player. Will call down some big hands with top pair, medium kicker. For the most part, a LAG.

Pot (about $4).
Flop comes:
Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

Villain bets $4,
Hero raises to $8
Villain pushes all-in for something like $15 more

(pot is now at $24)

Hero ???

Also, what do you do in the same situation with nut draw and bottom pair instead of midpair?
...


(I folded here. The villain was VERY aggressive, which made me want to call. Did I make the right move?)

Re: Nut flush draw w/ mid pair....
 

3:1 on a call, and you must be joking when you said you folded.

Re: Nut flush draw w/ mid pair....
 

easy call.

just call or raise more on the flop.

Re: Nut flush draw w/ mid pair....
 

I wouldn't think for more than a second before I called this against a PASSIVE player. Against a LAG there'd be no thought involved (well...maybe a little).

You have:
5 outs to two pair or trips
9 outs to the nut flush
a redraw to the nut straight

Yeah, some of these outs overlap so you don't really have 16 full outs, but I don't really want to do the math, and you get the point heh.

Last but not least, against a LAG you could very well be good with just the middle pair you already have.

Re: Nut flush draw w/ mid pair....
 

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I wouldn't think for more than a second before I called this against a PASSIVE player. Against a LAG there'd be no thought involved (well...maybe a little).

You have:
5 outs to two pair or trips
9 outs to the nut flush
a redraw to the nut straight

Yeah, some of these outs overlap so you don't really have 16 full outs, but I don't really want to do the math, and you get the point heh.

Last but not least, against a LAG you could very well be good with just the middle pair you already have.

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What if it was the same situation with bottom pair instead of middle pair?

Re: Nut flush draw w/ mid pair....
 

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3:1 on a call, and you must be joking when you said you folded.

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How is it 3:1 ?
It's a $15 call into a $24 pot. That's not even 1:2.

The way I figured it, I had:
- 9 diamonds that could help me
- a few outs that could come up with some straight draws (would need runner runner)
- 2 T's that would give me trips
- other options for 2 pair (4 outs)

With flush overlap, I'm looking at about 14-15 outs here.

The pot odds aren't great, as he's fully committed and I'm getting no implied odds at all.

thoughts?

Re: Nut flush draw w/ mid pair....
 

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What if it was the same situation with bottom pair instead of middle pair?

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Then I'd call the floor manager because there are two 3 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] in the deck [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

In seriousness though, having bottom pair dramatically changes this hand. You've lost your redraw to the straight. The 5 outs you have to two-pair/trips are now seriously tainted (the 3's are easily counterfeited). And the odds of you being ahead have been reduced to almost nothing. All you have left, really, is the flush draw and the other two A's, and you don't have the pot-odds to call.

So unless villain is a completely mindless LAG who'd push with 23o (and, yes, I'm sure we've all seen them on the odd occassion), I'd probably fold.

Edit: Having done the math on the pot-odds, I want to change my mind to call. 4:1 is enough for just the flush draw, not to mention any other draws that are out.

Re: Nut flush draw w/ mid pair....
 

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What if it was the same situation with bottom pair instead of middle pair?

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Then I'd call the floor manager because there are two 3 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] in the deck [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

In seriousness though, having bottom pair dramatically changes this hand. You've lost your redraw to the straight. The 5 outs you have to two-pair/trips are now seriously tainted (the 3's are easily counterfeited). And the odds of you being ahead have been reduced to almost nothing. All you have left, really, is the flush draw and the other two A's, and you don't have the pot-odds to call.

So unless villain is a completely mindless LAG who'd push with 23o (and, yes, I'm sure we've all seen them on the odd occassion), I'd probably fold.

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Could you explain these straight 'redraws'? I'm not quite understanding how it matters.

As far as I can tell, my best straight hand is now:
A_Q_T , with the queen and ten already on the board. With this call, I'm going to need a K AND J to make it.... which is about a 3% chance to happen.

Re: Nut flush draw w/ mid pair....
 

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How is it 3:1 ?
It's a $15 call into a $24 pot. That's not even 1:2

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My math:
$4 in the pot + Villain bets $4 = $8
Hero raises to $8 = $16
Villain raises another $15 = $31

Hero must call another $7 to match villain's bet.

Looks like a little over 4:1 to me.

Re: Nut flush draw w/ mid pair....
 

[ QUOTE ]
Here's the situation:

Live game. 7-handed, $20 buyin, .25/50 blinds

Hero is holding A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] in MP.

One limper in front of me, I make it 1.50 to go.
Everyone folds except the big blind, who just calls.

Villain is very aggressive, but not an awful player. Will call down some big hands with top pair, medium kicker. For the most part, a LAG.

Pot (about $4).
Flop comes:
Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

Villain bets $4,
Hero raises to $8
Villain pushes all-in for something like $15 more

(pot is now at $24)

Hero ???

Also, what do you do in the same situation with nut draw and bottom pair instead of midpair?
...


(I folded here. The villain was VERY aggressive, which made me want to call. Did I make the right move?)

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11 outs, assuming the ace isn't a clean out. 40% ish, given the pot very easy no brainer call. 12 outs assuming he has top two, with the ace being an out. A full 14 outs assuming both 10 and Ace are live outs. Only time you don't call here if you KNOW he has a set.

Makes no difference middle or bottom pair if you figure yourself to be behind and needing to make either flush, trips or two pair to win. Wouldn't surprise me in the least if he's pushing his flush draw.

I think this is a bone-easy call.

Re: Nut flush draw w/ mid pair....
 

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Could you explain these straight 'redraws'? I'm not quite understanding how it matters.

As far as I can tell, my best straight hand is now:
A_Q_T , with the queen and ten already on the board. With this call, I'm going to need a K AND J to make it.... which is about a 3% chance to happen.

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You've pretty much got it right. A "redraw" is a straight or flush draw where you'd have to go runner-runner to get there. It is most certainly a long shot (3% sounds about right on this one), but it does add a little strength to your hand.

Ed Miller has a section in SSHE that talks about how to count how many "outs" a redraw is worth. Roughly a flush redraw is worth about 1.5-2, a straight redraw is worth anywhere from 0-1.5, depending on how connected the existing cards are and how strong the straight made is.

I'd guess that this redraw is only worth 3/4 of an out at best. You need two cards to get there, but you are drawing to the nut straight.

Mostly I mention it to be sure I consider all the possible hands that are out. It helps to keep me from making a mistake because I failed to see it.

Re: Nut flush draw w/ mid pair....
 

i'd personally have limped behind preflop. if you're going to raise this, you need to raise more. i'd have made it $3 with the 1 limper.

Re: Nut flush draw w/ mid pair....
 

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How is it 3:1 ?
It's a $15 call into a $24 pot. That's not even 1:2

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My math:
$4 in the pot + Villain bets $4 = $8
Hero raises to $8 = $16
Villain raises another $15 = $31

Hero must call another $7 to match villain's bet.

Looks like a little over 4:1 to me.

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Uhhh, you might want take a look at your math again.

I thought a redraw is where, e.g., even if your opponent "outdraws" you, you still have outs to re-outdraw him. Can someone please correct or confirm this?

Re: Nut flush draw w/ mid pair....
 

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3:1 on a call, and you must be joking when you said you folded.

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How is it 3:1 ?
It's a $15 call into a $24 pot. That's not even 1:2.

The way I figured it, I had:
- 9 diamonds that could help me
- a few outs that could come up with some straight draws (would need runner runner)
- 2 T's that would give me trips
- other options for 2 pair (4 outs)

With flush overlap, I'm looking at about 14-15 outs here.

The pot odds aren't great, as he's fully committed and I'm getting no implied odds at all.

thoughts?

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you have 14 outs against a one pair hand like QJs and are actually a 50.5 to 49.5 favorite. if he has QT, you still have 44.5% equity with 12 outs to win. if he has QQ, then you only have 9 outs minus redraws for his full house...still 29% equity.

looks like the pot is $31 with $15 to call. it's only slightly -EV if he has a set and +EV any other time you're behind.

Re: Nut flush draw w/ mid pair....
 

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Hero must call another $7 to match villain's bet.

Looks like a little over 4:1 to me.

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Uhhh, you might want take a look at your math again.

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Ugh! You're right. Hero must call another $15 into a $31 pot. Closer to 2:1, which is a whole nother story.

Re: Nut flush draw w/ mid pair....
 

Here's something to clear up the total pot size:

Pot at $4 before flop.
Villain bet 4, I made it 8
He then matched the 8 (4 more), and THEN put 15 more to go.

So, the total pot was 4+4+8+4+15 = $35 total.

To me, it would have cost 15 to call his all-in, so 15:35, which is just a little worse than 1:2.

I'm not quite sure how this is an easy call.
There's a good chance he has some kind of made hand, which means I'm relying on draws to survive. He's also already all-in, so I have no chance at him folding, and no chance at making any more money.

Does it make more sense to pick my battles in better situations? This doesn't seem like a large +EV situation to me.

It's probably slightly positive....but why risk the majority of my chips on one big hand?

Re: Nut flush draw w/ mid pair....
 

"Villain is very aggressive, but not an awful player. Will call down some big hands with top pair, medium kicker. For the most part, a LAG."

Wouldn't surprise me if he's pushing his flush draw and that he's drawing to 1 or 2 outs on his straight flush draw here. Bizaare fold imo if you're adequately bankrolled.

Re: Nut flush draw w/ mid pair....
 

You indicated that villain is "very aggressive." I think most of us have assumed this means Loose Aggressive (I know I did).

An opponent like this could be pushing with:
Top pair - with or without a good kicker
Middle pair/decent kicker
Bottom pair/good kicker
A flush draw
OESD
A mid-sized PP
Absolutely nothing

You are already ahead of an aweful lot of this, and if you aren't you have a ton of outs that will let you catch up.

Even if villain is TAG or a thinking LAG he may be pushing because he thinks his hand needs to go to showdown. If that's the case then all his chips will still end up in the middle by the river. By pushing now instead of dragging it out he adds some nice fold equity to the mix.

The bottom line is that your chances of winning this hand are very good.

Re: Nut flush draw w/ mid pair....
 

A really aggressive player might also play a JK or 9J this way.

Re: Nut flush draw w/ mid pair....
 

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I'm not quite sure how this is an easy call.

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You are getting better than 2:1 odds, and you most likely have ~50% pot equity even if you are behind on the flop. It doesn't get much easier.

Re: Nut flush draw w/ mid pair....
 

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just call or raise more on the flop.

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I'd prefer to raise more, and I have no problems w/ being all in w/ these stacks and this opponent.

Re: Nut flush draw w/ mid pair....
 

Thanks for all the input...

I've been trying to see where I've been going wrong..and it's big scary calls like this.

During the hand, I felt like it was probably right to call, but also seemed pretty risky because:

(a) The player knows I'm tight, and generally respects it
(b) I reraised his pot-size flop bet

Overall, I probably should have called here, just based on the LAG characteristics of the villain.

Another thought though:

What if this player was well known as a tight-player?
Is this still something I should be calling?

Re: Nut flush draw w/ mid pair....
 

Just because a player is tight, doesn't mean that he is always betting with a set.

I was just in this situation, except my flush draw wasn't the nuts, and villain's AA redrew to the nut flush on me. Even without the NUT flush draw, this is still a correct call right?

Re: Nut flush draw w/ mid pair....
 

Why are you min-raising him on the flop? You should have juiced that way up. You have mid pair, probably an over card plus the nut flush draw. You should be willing to gamble here. You should have either raised to 20 or shoved on him and put him to the test. As far as calling his all-in, thats a tough one. He might have you beat. He limps his hand. That says that his hand isn't very strong since a LAG will likely raise any mediocre hand. AQ and KQ are out of the question. QJ and Q10 are very likely hands but even they seem to be raisable since he is a lag afterall. But those 2 are, along with Q9, the hands that he is likely to have that has you beat. The worst hand would be pocket 3s. NOW... hands that he would have that he would shove with are completely different. He might even be shoving you with J9 here on a open ended straight draw (or J9s for an open ended straight flush draw). 2:1 is a nice number. I'd gamble. But hey thats just me. A lay down isn't too bad either. However I'd say call.

Re: Nut flush draw w/ mid pair....
 

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Why are you min-raising him on the flop? You should have juiced that way up. You have mid pair, probably an over card plus the nut flush draw. You should be willing to gamble here. You should have either raised to 20 or shoved on him and put him to the test. As far as calling his all-in, thats a tough one. He might have you beat. He limps his hand. That says that his hand isn't very strong since a LAG will likely raise any mediocre hand. AQ and KQ are out of the question. QJ and Q10 are very likely hands but even they seem to be raisable since he is a lag afterall. But those 2 are, along with Q9, the hands that he is likely to have that has you beat. The worst hand would be pocket 3s. NOW... hands that he would have that he would shove with are completely different. He might even be shoving you with J9 here on a open ended straight draw (or J9s for an open ended straight flush draw). 2:1 is a nice number. I'd gamble. But hey thats just me. A lay down isn't too bad either. However I'd say call.

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the call is not tough at all. we have enough equity over villain's hand range here. a laydown is awful.

Re: Nut flush draw w/ mid pair....
 

just to be a gnit. A REdraw is when you have a made hand with a draw to a bigger made hand. For example, you have 9 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] on a board of J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. You have a straight with a redraw to the 9-high flush.

What was referred to as a redraw is a backdoor draw.

Btw this is an easy call, IMO.

Re: Nut flush draw w/ mid pair....
 

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Why are you min-raising him on the flop? You should have juiced that way up.

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100% agreed. Min-raise here is gross. Make a real raise. This is not a bad spot to get your money in.

Re: Nut flush draw w/ mid pair....
 

I personally would have instant called it. And now that I think about it that would have been an easy call.