My Reason and Phillips Poll
 

Hi Everyone:

On these forums we now have approximately 40 moderators. This site would not be any where near as good without them. They put a lot of time in and take their responsibility very seriously. They also do this voluntarily. That is they get no compensation from us.

As for moderating and barring, I have delegated that responsibility to Mat Sklansky and the moderators. I don't make those decisions anymore with one exception. Since we need the moderators to help us, and their function is so important, I have no tolerance for anyone who personally attacks one of our moderators.

Now they have a right to make suggestions and to criticize how the moderation should be done and can be improved. These forums have always encouraged vigorous debate and this is just part of that process. But it is my opinion that a certain line in regard to the moderators should not be crossed and that is why Paul Phillips was banned.

But it seems like many of you either don't see it this way or want him back for other reasons. So Mat and I have decided to let the decision be up to you. So here is a poll which we will abide by.

Re: My Reason and Phillips Poll
 

Link to the crime?

Re: My Reason and Phillips Poll
 

You forgot one option on the poll -Paul Phillips will never make another post here whether he is banned or not, so it doesn't matter.

Asking him to apologize, LOL.

Re: My Reason and Phillips Poll
 

Somehow I don't think it will mae a difference if you lift the ban, he won't post here again.

Re: My Reason and Phillips Poll
 

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Somehow I don't think it will mae a difference if you lift the ban, he won't post here again.

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Oh, hes threatened that before. I think he'll come back eventually.

Re: My Reason and Phillips Poll
 

I have personnally attacked Dynasty and his handling of this forum. I was not banned. I think banning someone is more childish than anything that they could possibly say. Moderators have post deletion authority. No more is needed. I believe Phillips should not be banned from positing. If he choses not to post because he does not like the rules that's his choice. Posting should be encouraged not discouraged. Just my opinion.

Vince

Re: My Reason and Phillips Poll
 

I don't think you should change your mind. I believe any reputable forum moderator would have banned him for those specific comments. He knew what he was doing and what was going to happen when all of that was said. There's no excuse for that kind of behavior and if that was how he really feels about this forum then he shouldn't be a part of it regardless.

Re: My Reason and Phillips Poll
 

any links? im bored.

Re: My Reason and Phillips Poll
 

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Since we need the moderators to help us, and their function is so important, I have no tolerance for anyone who personally attacks one of our moderators.

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mason, did you actually read paulp's deleted post before you pm'ed him? here's the part in it relevant to moderation:

"I haven't followed 2+2 as regularly as I might. When did every thread in this forum become a deletion/banning [censored] swinging contest? This site has the most brain damaged interface I've ever seen; instead of actually removing a deleted post they leave up a placeholder that says "post deleted" with the obvious result that every thread is hijacked by pointless metadiscussion. And this fellow dynasty pours fuel on the fire by boasting about all the people he's banned.

Whoever's idea this was, you might want to reconsider your implementation."

i agree that 2+2 ought not tolerate any personal attacks on its moderators, but it would be a huge stretch to construe what paulp said about dynasty as a "personal attack."

i'm guessing that mat deleted the post too hastily, and now he also regrets it. i'm guessing you issued that demand for an apology possibly without even seeing the "offending" post, and now regret it as well. lifting the ban on paulp would be the right thing to do.

and to those who say that paulp will never post here again, so what? if he chooses not to, fine. but mason and the 2+2 website will have shown that they are willing to own up to mistakes and reverse a course of action in the interest of fairness, and even if it turns out to be merely symbolic, that would still mean a great deal.

Re: My Reason and Phillips Poll
 

I don't even like Paul Phillips, but his banning was ridiculous. Anyway, this is all moot because he is way too proud to ever post here again.

Re: My Reason and Phillips Poll
 

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Link to the crime?

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haha, very funny [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: My Reason and Phillips Poll
 

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Anyway, this is all moot because he is way too smart to ever post here again.

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I wouldn't come back in his position, and it would having nothing to do with pride.

Re: My Reason and Phillips Poll
 

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any links? im bored.

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His thread was deleted, that's the whole point of this debate...so no there is no link, unless you want to go to RGP or FullContact for the full transcript [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Re: My Reason and Phillips Poll
 

Unless Paul made a completely different post that I missed, banning him was absolutely ridiculous. Disagree with him? Fine. But there's no way what I read of his can be construed as a personal attack. I sometimes think moderators go too far too. I realize it's a tough job, and if I did it I'm sure some people would disagree with my decisions. But whatever they get paid or don't get paid, they have to have somewhat of a thick skin. Instead you guys decided to make an example of Paul simply because you disagreed, and someone got his feelings hurt. Those are very bad reasons, and I think you've really hurt your site. I'm pretty sure Paul won't be back, although I hope I'm wrong. So congratulations for getting rid of him, since that's the result regardless of the intention. I think some　posters deserve to be banned, but when in doubt lean in the direction of discretion. That was not done in this case, and the loss is yours, and the 2+2 communities. It's not like we have that many real voices in the world of big time poker, and now we've lost one of them. Sorry this is so long, and my appologies if Paul made a completely different post other than the one I saw. But if it is just that one, banning him was completely wrong, in my opinion, which is all any of us can ever really give...

Re: My Reason and Phillips Poll
 

Also, this post is kind of funny.

Re: My Reason and Phillips Poll
 

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Anyway, this is all moot because he is way too smart to ever post here again.

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I wouldn't come back in his position, and it would having nothing to do with pride.

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I think it's a little bit of both. Obviously his ego prevents him going back on his word to never return. And he's too smart to waste his time and energy with debating people/self-censoring if he came back.

Re: My Reason and Phillips Poll
 

I think it's a moot point since he's said he won't post here again. Even if he did want to post here again, it would take all of 3 minutes to make a new account.

I agree with you that vicious personal attacks on mods (or anyone) should not be allowed. However, Paul brings up a good point in that Dynasty ( [censored] comes to mind also) boasts about banning people. Banning shouldn't be a fun contest, it should be something they do to keep the forum civil, without any emotional attachment.

Re: My Reason and Phillips Poll
 

Don't think he'll come back now, but yes, he should be "allowed" back. This whole thing is stupid. Seemed like a big ego trip from Mason to begin with. Mr. Phillips has been a 'mostly' positive contributor to this site (I look forward to his posts) and any negativity or childishness he displayed pales in comparison to some of the crap people post and get away with.

I suppose I get banned now for criticizing Mason too. What a joke this site and their 600 freaking moderators is becoming.

Re: My Reason and Phillips Poll
 

You shouldn't go on a banning spree if you're underage, or if you've had too much to drink. You might want to see this picture.

Re: My Reason and Phillips Poll
 

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...but mason and the 2+2 website will have shown that they are willing to own up to mistakes and reverse a course of action in the interest of fairness

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sounds good to me.

Re: My Reason and Phillips Poll
 

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What a joke this site and their 600 freaking moderators is becoming.

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I still have no idea what the user moderators have to do with any of this.

Many of you guys love to lump, but really you are only talking about a couple of mods when you make these kinds of statements. It's unfair to continually lump all the mods together when you only have issues with a few of them.

Re: My Reason and Phillips Poll
 

Cola, what do you mod?

Re: My Reason and Phillips Poll
 

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Cola, what do you mod?

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Myself? [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

Actually, I moderate the mag. and politics forums.

Re: My Reason and Phillips Poll
 

Oh come on. Don't back down that easily.

Paul was being a baby, he said he wasn't going to post here again, alright lets hold him to it.

--

I don't know why a guy that's posted here 300 times the past 2 years is creating such a buzz. There are better players/posters that post more often, and don't stir up controversy where there was none.

Re: My Reason and Phillips Poll
 

Meh. Keep him banned, let him back, I think it's all the same, really. He posted what, once every 3 days tops? If it weren't for these threads, I don't think anyone would notice he was gone.

Re: My Reason and Phillips Poll
 

I think he was rude. And u sending him the private message was classy thing to do rather than doing it publicly. And he acted classless making it public. But a ban seems harsh i think. Although it is your site and have the right to do as you choose. Btw Phillips bans people that don't agree with him on his forum so he is getting a taste of his own medicine in a sense.

Re: My Reason and Phillips Poll
 

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But there's no way what I read of his can be construed as a personal attack.

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He said something about Dynasty.. and then when they asked him to apologize for it, he called the owner/operators of the site 'Nazi youth'.

Re: My Reason and Phillips Poll
 

The comment he made about Nazi youth was wrong. It was also done AFTER the banning, not before. His comments about Dynasty hardly seemed like a personal attack to me, but were more Paul's oppinions that there were too many bannings, and the fact that the software left up "post deleted by moderator."

Re: My Reason and Phillips Poll
 

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The comment he made about Nazi youth was wrong. It was also done AFTER the banning, not before.

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Unless I'm missing something, this can't be true. How could he make a post after he was banned? Perhaps you are just using the wrong term.

Re: My Reason and Phillips Poll
 

They didnt take place after the banning, he was supposed to apologize, and instead turned it into a hitler comment. If he just told mason that he wasn't going to apologize, i doubt he'd had been banned, and he could go on being his angry/arrogant self.

Re: My Reason and Phillips Poll
 

OK, more correct would be after he was threatened with a banning and asked to appologize. Better?

Re: My Reason and Phillips Poll
 

I don't think it matters at this point.

Pardon my language, but you can't unfuck a sheep.

Re: My Reason and Phillips Poll
 

I think the only way to get Phillips back here is for Mason and Mat to turn the tables and apologize to him.

Unfortunately, I don't see that happening.

Re: My Reason and Phillips Poll
 

The timeline is correct.

It went:
Paul criticizes Dynasty and UBB.
Mason tells Paul either apologize privately and public or you're gone.
Paul pees on 2+2 with the Hitler comment, officially sealing the deal.

Re: My Reason and Phillips Poll
 

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They didnt take place after the banning, he was supposed to apologize, and instead turned it into a hitler comment. If he just told mason that he wasn't going to apologize, i doubt he'd had been banned, and he could go on being his angry/arrogant self.

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"Paul, we are considering granting your wish of never allowing you to post here again. You need to appologize, first to us privately, and then to the forum."

that was the de facto banning. apologize, privately AND publicly, or we will ban you. obviously paulp wasn't going to apologize for anything, given that all he had done was make a simple factual observation in saying dynasty poured fuel on the fire by boasting about banning people. so mason's pm was, in effect, the ban. paulp's hitler youth comment was just a "screw you and good riddance" on his way out.

Re: My Reason and Phillips Poll
 

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The timeline is correct.

It went:
Paul criticizes Dynasty and UBB.
Mason tells Paul either apologize privately and public or you're gone.
Paul pees on 2+2 with the Hitler comment, officially sealing the deal.

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Your timeline seems to be correct, but his wasn't. All I was saying is that it's obviously not possible to make a post/comment from an account that has already been banned.

Re: My Reason and Phillips Poll
 

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Pardon my language, but you can't unfuck a sheep.

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Tell it to Martha Stewart.

Re: My Reason and Phillips Poll
 

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mikech:
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so mason's pm was, in effect, the ban

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No.

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yes. mason's absurd ultimatum was for him to apologize for a non-existent offense, or be banned. the first option is an impossibility, so the second option is a fait accompli.

Re: My Reason and Phillips Poll
 

if the moderators can't take a little hate mail now and then, they shouldn't be moderators. It comes with the territory.

But like Paul, I'm fed up with the majority of the mods treating their various forums like their own personal fiefdoms. Or however you spell that!

my advice to all of the moderators is simple:

calm the [censored] down. The forums are for US, not you. Your presence, like a good offensive lineman, should not be noticed.

So knock it off - I'd hate to have to leave 2+2 behind.

Re: My Reason and Phillips Poll
 

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mikech:
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so mason's pm was, in effect, the ban

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No.

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yes. mason's absurd ultimatum was for him to apologize for a non-existent offense, or be banned. the first option is an impossibility, so the second option is a fait accompli.

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I deleted that part of my post because it's not something I want to argue about. If that's how you see things, there is little that can be said to change your mind. Just so it's clear, though, I believe a ban is when one of the moderators or admins actually bans a user from the site with the admin tools.

It's more or less just about our differing opinion on what a ban really is, so it's pretty pointless to have a long argument about it.