99 flops set, but scary board
 

should i c/c the flop and then c/r turn here?

is my river call a leak? i don't know why i even bother.

Party Poker 0.50/1.00 Hold'em <font color="#0000FF">(6 handed)</font> link

Preflop: Hero is SB with 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG calls, <font color="#666666">1 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Button raises</font>, Hero calls, BB calls, UTG calls.

Flop: (8.00 SB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB calls, UTG calls, Button calls.

Turn: (6.00 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB calls, UTG calls, Button folds.

River: (9.00 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises</font>, UTG folds, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 13.00 BB.

Re: 99 flops set, but scary board
 

not very much you can do, it's fine, since it's .5/1

i think i'd maybe check-call the river if i saw this on 3/6 or 5/10. any other opinions?

Re: 99 flops set, but scary board
 

I would cr the flop. This should give your hand some protection against lone T's, 5's and QJ. That river sucks. I think you got to fold. At least that's what I'd be thinking right before I clicked call [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Re: 99 flops set, but scary board
 

from reading SSHE, it says with draw-heavy boards to wait until the turn as most players are getting the right odds to call on the flop... doesn't that apply here?

is the call a leak? honestly most people do it but it always seems i'm beat.

Re: 99 flops set, but scary board
 

How about some reads?

Reason I ask, is that if you put the button on a wide range of hands (since he is the button, and perhaps additional reads) I would re-raise pre-flop. Infact with 99 I will often re-raise preflop against "typical" .5/1 players on the button.

Many people raise the button with a wide range of hands even if they are not first in... I think the pfrr is good eventhough you end up out of position post flop...

what do you think?

I think you have to avoid putting yourself in the situation of the river call by playing more aggressively. C/R flop or RR pf would avoid the situation.

Given the fact that you called preflop. When the flop comes, if you were to check, you would be fairly certain that the button would bet out. Now you c/r and the two UTG and BB are faced with calling 2 cold. So, they probably fold. If they don't, be on the lookout for trouble.

The T is not a happy turn, and the river diamond is not good either, but if you were heads up with the pf raiser things would be looking much better than being against a BB who called down the entire way.

Peter.

Re: 99 flops set, but scary board
 

C/R that flop almost always..unless you have a read saying that the button doesnt make cont. bets all that much. The river is a bad river but I still am calling hoping to see a lower set or 2 pair.

Re: 99 flops set, but scary board
 

what is the point of the flop c/r? their odds will still be good to call.

Re: 99 flops set, but scary board
 

no one with any sort of draw will fold that flop for 2 bets at this level.

Re: 99 flops set, but scary board
 

Checkraise the flop. Knock BB and UTG out.

Re: 99 flops set, but scary board
 

what if it doesn't? i'm telling you on this board they aren't folding.

Re: 99 flops set, but scary board
 

If they won't fold, then charge them two bets instead of one to continue. If they accept the less favorable odds you are offering them via a double bet the wager becomes more favorable to you. If the odds they accept don't justify the call, you will then make money on them.

Re: 99 flops set, but scary board
 

Hand looks okay. Call the river I guess against an unknown here, and typically I 3-bet preflop. Betting the flop is definitely better than check/raising.

Re: 99 flops set, but scary board
 

are you sure they won't have the correct odds to call two cold? many hands have strong draws here.

Re: 99 flops set, but scary board
 

on the flop, what is your reasoning for preferring a lead?

Re: 99 flops set, but scary board
 

[ QUOTE ]
are you sure they won't have the correct odds to call two cold?

[/ QUOTE ]No. They might have the correct odds to call one or two bets. But would you rather offer them a 10:1 payoff or 5:1 payoff if they connect?

Re: 99 flops set, but scary board
 

true, it just seems i have a huge equity shift on the turn.

Re: 99 flops set, but scary board
 

[ QUOTE ]
true, it just seems i have a huge equity shift on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ] Yes, you do. But you didn't know that card was going to come.

I'd just check/call that river by the way, so I could see the showdown for one. I'd like to show this set down although it won't often be ahead. You might get more value out of bet/folding though. If you bet, I believe you can safely fold to a raise here. I'd like to hear more from some river experts about that though.

Re: 99 flops set, but scary board
 

that's true, i didn't know that card was coming.. but i never claimed otherwise, i just said my bet/raise/fold decision will be much easier odds-wise on the turn with this kind of flop imo.

Re: 99 flops set, but scary board
 

3-bet preflop. Get your value in there.
[ QUOTE ]
should i c/c the flop and then c/r turn here?


[/ QUOTE ]
No, betting and trapping here is fine. You have a tremendous amount of equity. Further I'm not all that interested in pulling fancy moves to knock people out . The only hand I might really want to push out of the hand is someone with a lone T. I don't see hand protection as a big issue here because the draws that exist are significant enough where as they will call anyway, and further, you knocking the types of hands out that you would be able to knock out by c/r anywhere will not really improve your equity here. You're kind of in a race type situation where you just need to get your bets in when you have the best hand and just be weary when those bad cards do pop up. The flush draws are coming no matter and 7's are too.

I dunno about the river. A read would be nice. Calling would depend on how aggresive he is. Could he do this with 65 or 85, T5 or 55?

Re: 99 flops set, but scary board
 

i really don't know if he'd call with those, i don't have great reads other than assumed looseness based on level.

Re: 99 flops set, but scary board
 

[ QUOTE ]
If they won't fold, then charge them two bets instead of one to continue. If they accept the less favorable odds you are offering them via a double bet the wager becomes more favorable to you. If the odds they accept don't justify the call, you will then make money on them.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't get this line of reasoning at all. Who is going to bet the flop? Checking and having this checked through and giving a free card is criminal. You must lead out here. With a board this draw heavy a c/r will not protect your hand. Bet for value and build the pot - you have a big EV edge over your opponent's possible holdings.

Without a read I'd call this river, but I wouldn't be holding my breath. Pray he has 55.

Re: 99 flops set, but scary board
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If they won't fold, then charge them two bets instead of one to continue. If they accept the less favorable odds you are offering them via a double bet the wager becomes more favorable to you. If the odds they accept don't justify the call, you will then make money on them.

[/ QUOTE ]I don't get this line of reasoning at all. Who is going to bet the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]How about the preflop raiser on the button?


[ QUOTE ]
Checking and having this checked through and giving a free card is criminal. You must lead out here.

[/ QUOTE ] I agree about not wanting to give a free card. But why do you think Button is going to check this through?


[ QUOTE ]
With a board this draw heavy a c/r will not protect your hand.

[/ QUOTE ]
An OES or Flush Draw will still have correct odds to call, but a checkraise will make a gutshot and many other hands incorrect to call where betting out and facing them with one bet does not. And what makes you think both BB and UTG have 8 and 9 out OES and FDs? Maybe only one of them or neither one of them have that. And even if an OESD or FD is out there, why would you want to offer them 10:1 by betting out if you have the choice of offering them 5:1 with a checkraise?


[ QUOTE ]
Bet for value and build the pot - you have a big EV edge over your opponent's possible holdings

[/ QUOTE ]
Checkraising builds the pot more than betting out, so that serves this purpose you state better than betting out also. An exception would be if button will raise after you bet out in which case you could three-bet, but counting on him to raise after you bet into him and his preflop raise is far more risky than counting on him to bet if you check.

Re: 99 flops set, but scary board
 

Even with a check raise here you are giving people the correct odds to draw to a flush/straight since you are giving them 5,5-1 to call. But it's alot worse than the 9-1 you give them when you open.

I check/raise the flop here. Don't bet that river unless you are doing a bet/fold. Any hand that raise you have you beat.