Re: Marginal hand #2 Play or no play
 

I fold this because your given read on the blinds is that they are tight.

Re: Marginal hand #2 Play or no play
 

Ok, I called because of the reasons I already outlined. I'll call this every time with a raiser and 2 others. If the blinds come along then great but I won't base my decision on whether I think they will or not. Whether that's correct or not I'll leave that up to you guys.

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is Button with 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, MP2 calls, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 raises</font>, CO calls, Hero calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP2 calls.

Flop: (9.50 SB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">MP2 bets</font>, MP3 calls, CO calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 3-bets</font>, MP3 folds, CO folds, Hero??

Well, that 3-bet was a surprise.

Re: Marginal hand #2 Play or no play
 

[ QUOTE ]
Ok, so most everyone here so far would fold this. If nobody had raised would you have called? Nah, don't answer that. I'm pretty sure you would have.

So, you call the flop with 3 others and the BB. What usually happens if you flop a draw? Everybody check to you because they're passive after the flop so you bet. 2 people call. You hit your draw on the turn and bet again. 1 person calls. You bet the river and he calls.

Let's see how much money that is. 5.5sb+3sb+2bb+2bb is roughly 8bb. So you profited 5bb. We'll see what happens in a raised pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

Absurd. You neglected the 65% that you don't actually hit your draw and the other 50% (estimated) of the time you flop nothing.

(By the way, I don't see where 5.5 SB comes from in your calculation. You don't get to count your 1 SB investment to see the flop as part of your profit.)

Re: Marginal hand #2 Play or no play
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'll call this every time with a raiser and 2 others. If the blinds come along then great but I won't base my decision on whether I think they will or not. Whether that's correct or not I'll leave that up to you guys.

[/ QUOTE ]

I can see where your 27% VPIP comes from [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

Re: Marginal hand #2 Play or no play
 

I'm folding this, and unlike many I don't see this as being especially close.

97s is a marginally profitable hand on the button if you can get in for one bet. Having to pay two bets preflop destroys the implied odds that this hand relies upon so desperately.

Add another limper or two, or loosen up the blinds, and I could be talked into coldcalling with this. But I don't think we've reached the "close decision" threshold yet.

Re: Marginal hand #2 Play or no play
 

Call. It doesn't look like MP2 is going anywhere, and it doesn't look like he's in the mood to give you a free card.

Re: Marginal hand #2 Play or no play
 

[ QUOTE ]
Ok, I called because of the reasons I already outlined. I'll call this every time with a raiser and 2 others. If the blinds come along then great but I won't base my decision on whether I think they will or not. Whether that's correct or not I'll leave that up to you guys.

Party Poker 0.5/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is Button with 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, MP2 calls, <font color="#CC3333">MP3 raises</font>, CO calls, Hero calls, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, MP2 calls.

Flop: (9.50 SB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">MP2 bets</font>, MP3 calls, CO calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 3-bets</font>, MP3 folds, CO folds, Hero??

Well, that 3-bet was a surprise.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hero calls.

*Showing hands where you make marginal calls and then hit a nice draw does not prove that making the marginal calls is correct

Re: Marginal hand #2 Play or no play
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm folding this, and unlike many I don't see this as being especially close.

97s is a marginally profitable hand on the button if you can get in for one bet. Having to pay two bets preflop destroys the implied odds that this hand relies upon so desperately.

Add another limper or two, or loosen up the blinds, and I could be talked into coldcalling with this. But I don't think we've reached the "close decision" threshold yet.

[/ QUOTE ]

97s is much better than that. It's an auto-limp on the button with two other players. You're not making TONS of money from this hand, but it's easily profitable.

Re: Marginal hand #2 Play or no play
 

[ QUOTE ]
Ok, I called because of the reasons I already outlined. I'll call this every time with a raiser and 2 others. If the blinds come along then great but I won't base my decision on whether I think they will or not. Whether that's correct or not I'll leave that up to you guys.

[/ QUOTE ]

One of the things I've noticed in your posts is that you dismiss other people's arguments out of hand. I don't think this is the best way to use this forum to improve your game.

*Everyone* in this thread (except you) is in agreement that this is a fold preflop. While nobody is arguing that it's a huge leak, you might want to ask yourself if you're making a systematic mistake in preflop hand evaluation, or whether we're all wrong.

Re: Marginal hand #2 Play or no play
 

Maybe it's a leak but I'm a sucker for these kinds of hands (position, aggressor on my right which gives me some control, middle 1-gap suited) - I'd play (call) really hoping the blinds call. I'm always reluctant to cc but I think it might be worth it here. (Obviously the risk is blinds reraising to play. I'd consider folding to a reraise since with CO's cc, the blind(s) would probably only be raising with very strong hands.)

I like these partly because if I pair one/both it's more likely a reraise folds those on my left (everybody's passive). And if my fl/str starts to fill out I can call/semi-bluff depending (and probably no one suspecting I'm playing a 1-gapper).


Hmm. I had only read OP but after reading replies it appears I have a leak.

What kind of players normally complete from the blind with anything decent after two coldcalls, hoping to score big on the flop? Only loose players? Is that a red flag for tight players? Two coldcalls makes me think "bad players to take advantage of" (and since I admit this is a leak, I've admitted I am in fact playing badly here)?