JJ, fishy game...do I want callers or don\'t I?
 

It seems like I've read many times that with a hand like JJ I should be hoping that my pre-flop raise gets me heads up with one caller. My question is: in a fishy game, why? If people are calling me with weaker hands (A9, KJ, 54s), why isn't it a case of 'the more, the merrier'? I ran all sorts of scenarios on Poker Stove, and it seemed like with any reasonable range of hands for a loose game, the more callers I get the better. Am I missing something?

Re: JJ, fishy game...do I want callers or don\'t I?
 

It depends...

If you want to play it as a big pair with a large likelihood of taking the pot down on the flop or turn unimproved, then you need it heads up.

If you want to play it for set value (as in lose a lot of small pots where you don't have a set, hoping to make up for it with large pots where you do have a set), then you don't need it heads up. It depends on the game. If everyone is really loose and you have 6 loose people left to act behind you, you don't want to play JJ out of position in a big pot against loose players, generally.

Re: JJ, fishy game...do I want callers or don\'t I?
 

Lets go with the first one. I want to play it as a large pair. Let's say I'm on the button. 3 people limp. Blinds are 10/20. I raise to 80. Are you saying that in a fishy game (lets say $10 online tourney) I'm hoping that only one of these donks will call me with something like KJ,A8, or 65s? Seems to me that for each of them individually, a call would be a mistake (and therefore good for me), so why wouldn't I be hoping for all three to make mistakes? Granted, I won't win as often, but when I do its going to be a big pot.

Re: JJ, fishy game...do I want callers or don\'t I?
 

you want as many people with worse hands than yours to call as possible. keep in mind that this will lower the frequency with which you win the pot, but thats ok because the pots you win when you hold up will be much bigger.

Re: JJ, fishy game...do I want callers or don\'t I?
 

The basic problem is that the more people you let in, the more likely you are to be outflopped. Like MLG says, the pots you win when your hand holds up will be bigger, but you also have to know when you're no good and be able to let go of the hand. The more people you let in, the trickier the situation will be. If you're comfortable with that, then that's fine.

Re: JJ, fishy game...do I want callers or don\'t I?
 

That's what I thought. When I realized that (on the bus this morning), that was a real eye-opener for me, because I feel like I've been reading over and over that pairs like 99,TT, and JJ want exactly one caller. I had been overbetting these pairs to try to cut down on the number of callers. The funny thing is I got my first chance to apply my new knowledge about 5 minutes into the only tournament I played today (6,000 person freeroll). Blinds are 10/20 4 limpers, I have JJ in either CO or Button, I bet 80 (would have bet 100-200 before) and 3 of them call. All have Ax or Kx, and the flop is AKJ. I stack 2 of them and have the chip lead.

Re: JJ, fishy game...do I want callers or don\'t I?
 

I've actually been finding it that if there are enough people (say 4+) I have a plan...fold to any bet if there are overcards on the flop. 1 caller I also have a plan...if there's only one overcard I can bet. The situation I find toughest is 2 or 3 callers and just one overcard. Never really sure what to do. I generally end up folding if they bet.

P.S. Of course my overbets were preventing me from being in this situation as often before as I'm likely to be now.

Re: JJ, fishy game...do I want callers or don\'t I?
 

here's the problem with betting 80 after 4 limpers. you are giving them the correct odds to try and catch up with JJ. With a small raise they are not making a mistake by calling and trying to outflop you. Raise 3x the big blind + 1BB for every limper and it gives you the right balance.

Re: JJ, fishy game...do I want callers or don\'t I?
 

Thanks. I had heard that rule of thumb before, but never really thought about why it existed before. I think I just evolved from a 2.3 to a 2.4. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: JJ, fishy game...do I want callers or don\'t I?
 

one other thing i meant to add. raising big is not only to thin the field it is also to make players make bigger mistakes. if sombody has J10 and calls 60 more thats great, if they call 160 more thats even better.