AsJs flush draw stay in or drop out?
 

Ok I haven't posted in a while, but I was at the Taj playing 5-10, I know I should post this in the small stakes forum, but this type of game I was in qualifies for a mid limit post.

I'm 2nd to act and I was contimplating about raising with my AhJh after a previous limper. The reason why is that I don't want to discourage anyone with a smaller Ace to fold and I want to gain info from the people behind me if they infact hold a raising hand (a better raising hand) Plus my hand works great multiway as well. Well I limp after the first person limps. Thinking about it now I should have probably raised the weak limper and I emphasize the word weak because he almost virtually limped on every hand. Well anyway I limp then one other person limps and there is a raise. Cutoff cold calls, button drops, SB calls BB calls, first limper calls, and I close the round with my call.

So now there is $80 in the flop with 8 people to take this flop. The flop comes.

Qh 4h 3s.

The SB checks. The BB checks, I check. <---- I think I should have bet, but I'm thinking that the original raiser will bet because he does like this flop from the little look in his eye. Plus my bet won't scare anyone out, and I'm hoping that if I hit a heart on the turn it would be a good way to pull in the checkraise...since there is only one other person between me and the raiser. The raiser bets out, the guy to go next to him raises, and the SB 3 bets. BB drops and original bettor drops. Now it comes to me. Do I call the $15 cold or do I fold? but you have to think that I'm going to be possibly putting in $20 with what has transpired thus far on the flop. The rest of the hand is irrelevant because I want your input on what I should do on the flop. Thanks for the input.



----Just for info. I realized what I did wrong on this hand. It was a tough decision for me to either raise or call the original limpers bet, because I did emphasize that I don't want to lose a weaker Ace and I want to find out if someone has a bigger one behind me.

----On the flop I debated whether betting or checking was correct, but at the same time I did not want to bet only to have the original raiser raise and kill my customers behind me.

Do you see my rationalizations on my decisions? What do you think?

Also think ahead that if a heart doesn't fall on the turn I'm facing at least $20 on the turn or possibly $30 or $40.

Decisions....Decisions.....Decisions.....

Re: AsJs flush draw stay in or drop out?
 

You absolutely can't fold. You have the nut flush draw with pot odds coming out of your wozonga. If the cap is a bet and three raises, I think you should cap here. If it isn't, I still think you should consider raising to disguise your hand.

Re: AsJs flush draw stay in or drop out?
 

I agree. You can't fold. You not only have the nut flush draw, you also have two runner-runner gutshots for a straight. I know from the way the hand played out so far that you are behind to at least KQ if not stronger. I would have bet out on the flop and hoped to eliminate some aces looking to share a pot if it hit. Besides, I doubt you are going to lose many on such a big pot.

My biggest fear for the turn obviously would be for the board to pair. Then, if you are facing two big-bets cold, you really have to go into the think tank and calculate odds.

Re: AsJs flush draw stay in or drop out?
 

I think you have a clear pre-flop raise. I agree AJs enjoys just about any size group, I would be doing more to protect the AJ portion of my hand and less to draw in bets for the suited portion. If you had raised, the over-card outs might be good, at this point I think they are worthless.

I agree with your flop check with the pre-flop raiser immediately acting after you, but you should do this with the intention of check—raising. With a group this big you want to build the pot up. The hitch is, if you think the raiser will three bet, and you think this will drive the remaining players out of the pot, a check-call is probably in order. Obviously, this is not a problem in this hand.

With three other people in the pot you should raise, if you don’t think you will lose anyone. Discounting two of your hearts, you are still 2.6:1 to hit the nut flush by the end. I am discounting these cards because they pair the board, which in my opinion kills your hand.

I suspect there is a set and two-pair out there, which makes your hand even more appealing. Assuming that a paired board kills your hand, it’s nice to have some of these cards tied up (but of course you would much rather everyone have no full-house chances). Who knows what the last guy has, maybe a straight draw, or a smaller flush. Sure, there is probably someone ahead of you who is drawing to a better hand with more outs, but there are likely two people drawing dead, and you have more than enough equity on every chip that goes into that pot.

If you don’t get your heart on the turn, I would go into check-call mode. If the board pairs on the turn, things get hairy. I would put down a side bet that you were drawing dead, but it’s a damn big pot at this point…Hopefully it wont cost 8 big bets to see it to the end.

How rare is this type of flop action in this game. I may be giving your opponents too much respect and I am rather curious. Would you mind posting the results, or at least the turn/river cards and who showed down what?

Huh?

BTW – So what made this such a special $5-$10 game? Don’t really care that this is in mid-high, but in general I find the advice on both small and medium stakes boards to be equally sound. I’ve played the Taj $5-$10 pretty regularly and don’t think very highly of the players. They don’t seem tricky, just confusing. I’ve never seen so many people open-limp on the button [img]/forums/images/icons/confused.gif[/img] [img]/forums/images/icons/confused.gif[/img]

RESULTS
 

well on the turn fell a 9d. I checked and called..only one bet. On the river fell the 9s. It went check check check all the way around. QK the reraiser took down the pot. The first flop raiser showed down Q4 for a flopped two pair that got killed on the river.

The reason I posted this 5-10 game here is because you hardly ever see, in a 5-10 game on the flop, check, bet, raise, reraise.

Some of those guys may have been loose preflop but they all played well after the flop. Also there was some limp reraising going on before the flop.

Re: RESULTS
 

The reason I posted this 5-10 game here is because you hardly ever see, in a 5-10 game on the flop, check, bet, raise, reraise.

It's funny how different games are in different places. In Northern California, you'll see that all the time in both 3-6 and 6-12 games. In fact, you'll probably see it more than in 15-30/20-40 games for a number of reasons.

Re: AsJs flush draw stay in or drop out?
 

Mikey,

Preflop: I think the decision to raise or not in spots like that should pretty much be made before the cards are dealt. Sorta like how outfielders know which base to throw to.

Postflop: Again, it's already decided. When I play ace-suited, I'm going to the river if I flop the nut flush draw. Just a matter of walk or run. With your hand, with all those players lined up behind me, I'd just as soon walk.

Tommy

Re: AsJs flush draw stay in or drop out?
 

I would have called the flop 3-bet with 9h8h. You shouldn't have to ask about AhJh.

Re: AsJs flush draw stay in or drop out?
 

First: I don't think games where 8 people see a flop in a preflop raised pot is typical of mid limit games. It sure it typical of low limit games.

Second: you should consider 3-betting preflop.

Third: "Plus my bet won't scare anyone out". You don't understand pot odds or EV yet if you are sincerely making this statement.

Fourth: say "Guess I'll save time" and cap it. Folding isn't even a consideration!?

Fifth: Turn play is a part of the reason you 4 bet here. It can help prevent you from having to call 3-4 bets on the turn.

Re: AsJs flush draw stay in or drop out?
 

Welcome back, Mikey.

In a loose game, being suited makes the difference between raising or limping (or folding) AJ in EP. I would raise AJs. I understand your point about the only hands that fold are the hands that you dominate, but I think AJs is too strong a hand not to raise.

Folding on the flop here is just a bad card play. Remember, you are 2:1 against hitting to the nuts. With 3 opponents, any money you put in, you have the best of it. Cap it.

Re: Is this worth considering?
 

The poster mentioned that the game was usually quite stable and that most players played reasonably well post-flop. Given the action that occurred, is it possible that AJ could have won the pot along the road? How about a limp-raise pre-flop with that many callers and then a flop checkraise? I don't know how the KQ would respond to this type of pressure nor do I know what the counterfeited 2 pair does at the river. I suspect he would call based on the size of the pot but would the extra 2 small bets have given AJs a chance to win this pot?

Larry

original post in wrong forum n/m
 

Re: Is this worth considering?
 

would the extra 2 small bets have given AJs a chance to win this pot?

Nothing he could do post-flop, but there's a chance a pre-flop raise would have been enough.

It was a little hard to tell, but I think the pre-flop action went something like:

UTG limps
Mikey limps w/ AJs
Limper (MP)
Raiser (LP)
Cutoff calls (Q4)
SB calls (QK)
BB calls
UTG calls
Mikey calls
Limper after Mikey calls?

(Mikey, you mention 5 callers of the raise, but 8 see the flop.)

Flop:

SB checks
BB checks
UTG leaves
Mikey checks
MP checks
LP bets
Cutoff raises w/ Q4
SB 3-bets w/ QK
BB folds
Mikey moves over a couple of seats
MP and LP fold
Mikey calls

Details and joking aside, it went something like that.

Once the flop comes, QK isn't going anywhere. However, if Mikey raises pre-flop and the raiser 3-bets, both Q4 and QK might be out. Though, by the sounds of this game, QK might still be around. I think there's a good chance Mikey could have won this pot with a raise pre-flop, but there's also a chance he'd end up getting called down by pre-flop raiser and lose to AK or pocket pair.

The point that an earlier poster made still holds though. By raising here you build a bigger pot if it goes multi-way, which is fine, or you get people to fold and gain overcard value.

Re: AsJs flush draw stay in or drop out?
 

Cap it! For the love of all humanity cap it!

PokerPrince

Re: AsJs flush draw stay in or drop out?
 

i alter my pre play with raising or calling...

"I want to gain info from the people behind me if they infact hold a raising hand (a better raising hand)"

this is a little off....the more limpers, the LOWER the raising standards may be behind you. *Player Dependent*...they could very well raise with a lesser raising hand...you dont gain much info from LP raisers unless theyre obvious what they raise with....in THAT case, this hand CAN/IS playing like some small stakes games...remember your description. higher the stake, id say the wider range of hands to tactically raise behind you.

im calling this flop....even if they all have sets i have 8 clean outs to the nuts. and id much rather have the heart on the turn, but unless the board pairs and subsequent action follows

the flop
im not worried about scaring other out, but i dont want it raised on my left either. id check hoping the preraiser bets, and raise....i wouldve capped it...probably is going to be anyway. then if i miss, check call the turn...

for the most part, im seeing the river with this draw...

b

Re: AsJs flush draw stay in or drop out?
 

"Folding isn't even a consideration!? "

youre not serious...are you?

b

interesting idea
 

i forgot about the limp reraise option preflop..hmmmm thanks for reminding me [img]/forums/images/icons/cool.gif[/img]

b

Re: AsJs flush draw stay in or drop out?
 

You want to fold the nut flush draw on the flop in a massive pot? If so, you are crazy.

Re: AsJs flush draw stay in or drop out?
 

Agreed. If you're considering folding the nut flush draw on an unpaired flop in an 8-handed pot raised pre-flop, then you are thinking about the wrong things during the play of the hand.

Re: AsJs flush draw stay in or drop out?
 

Add me to the list that thinks folding would be insane.

By my math there's $110 in the pot and Mikey has to call $15. That's better than 7-1 on a 4-1 nut draw.

The worst case scenario is Mikey calls and for some reason the bettor and raiser fold, then the 3 bettor caps it with a set. Under this unlikely scenario he's getting almost 6-1 on a 5-1 draw. What more can you ask for?

Re: AsJs flush draw stay in or drop out?
 

i didnt think you would say to fold it. but this....

"Fourth: say "Guess I'll save time" and cap it. Folding isn't even a consideration!? "

look at the punctuation at the end...it looked like you were saying to consider it...which, as you replied....would be crazy. just makin sure... [img]/forums/images/icons/grin.gif[/img]

b

You are completely right
 

when you originally said that this post does not belong in the mid-high forum. Limping with AhJh is not terrible, but in a weak game where everyone plays trash you are so much better than the field and should raise. On the flop, you question calling 3-bets with the nut flush draw? I think this is much closer to capping than to folding.

I'm not sure where you play, but check, bet, raise, reraise is common in the LA low-limits and you should post hands like this in those forums.

DN