Quiz from Phil Gordon\'s website
 

I would have bet the flop but that wasn't an option. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] Anyhow, I don't fold here... am I wrong?


Limit Poker, Blinds $5/10
You are dealt 8c6c in the big blind. Two middle position players call the bet, everyone else folds to you. You decide to call. The flop comes Kh9h7d. You check, your first opponent bets $10, the second opponent raises to $20. There is $65 in the pot. What do you do?

(a) raise
(b) call
(c) fold

Answer: (c) fold. There are plenty of hands that your opponents might be betting bet with here, and pretty much all of them have you beat. Your only real hope is straight draw. Assuming your eight straight outs are good, the "rule of four" tells you you’ve got about a 32% chance of making your hand by the river, about one chance in three, or 2-to-1 odds against. The pot is offering you $85/$20, or a little better than 4-to-1 on your call.

So why not call? Two reasons:

(1) Not all of your outs may be good. The 10h and 5h might make a flush for an opponent. With only six "clean" outs, the rule of four gives you only a 24% chance, or 3-to-1 against. Still decent odds, except that….
(2) Your opponents probably aren’t done betting yet. What if the opening bettor comes back with a re-raise? What if there are a bet and a raise on the turn? Can you call? Suddenly, your odds don’t look so good.

Chasing speculative hands, especially when you’re out of position, is a good way to diminish your bankroll.

Re: Quiz from Phil Gordon\'s website
 

how do you bet 10$ on the flop if it is 5$ 10$ limit holdem?

No wonder Phil Gordon is so good, he can bet as much as he wants in limit!

Re: Quiz from Phil Gordon\'s website
 

This is wrong in my opinion.

Even if you just have 6 outs, 85-20 is actually plenty good to call with 6 outs considering all those outs are very clean and you have good implied odds.

In a three-handed pot with this many outs, even if you get reraised and have to pay more on the flop, your odds are generally good enough that putting in 3 bets or even 4 against two opponents is a fine proposition.

And, finally, usually we DO have 8 outs. In a three way field, the vast majority of the time a flush draw is NOT out. With 8 outs we are actually about dead even hot-and-cold against 2 opponents.


Folding here would be a substantial mistake in my opinion.


And, yes, I tend to think betting this flop is the correct play. Often that will allow us to take the pot down unimproved on the flop or turn.

Re: Quiz from Phil Gordon\'s website
 

[ QUOTE ]
how do you bet 10$ on the flop if it is 5$ 10$ limit holdem?

No wonder Phil Gordon is so good, he can bet as much as he wants in limit!

[/ QUOTE ]

It says Blinds are $5/$10

Re: Quiz from Phil Gordon\'s website
 

its $10/$20... the quiz said the BLINDS were 5/10

Re: Quiz from Phil Gordon\'s website
 

[ QUOTE ]
I would have bet the flop but that wasn't an option. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] Anyhow, I don't fold here... am I wrong?


Limit Poker, Blinds $5/10
You are dealt 8c6c in the big blind. Two middle position players call the bet, everyone else folds to you. You decide to call. The flop comes Kh9h7d. You check, your first opponent bets $10, the second opponent raises to $20. There is $65 in the pot. What do you do?

(a) raise
(b) call
(c) fold

Answer: (c) fold. There are plenty of hands that your opponents might be betting bet with here, and pretty much all of them have you beat. Your only real hope is straight draw. Assuming your eight straight outs are good, the "rule of four" tells you you’ve got about a 32% chance of making your hand by the river, about one chance in three, or 2-to-1 odds against. The pot is offering you $85/$20, or a little better than 4-to-1 on your call.

So why not call? Two reasons:

(1) Not all of your outs may be good. The 10h and 5h might make a flush for an opponent. With only six "clean" outs, the rule of four gives you only a 24% chance, or 3-to-1 against. Still decent odds, except that….
(2) Your opponents probably aren’t done betting yet. What if the opening bettor comes back with a re-raise? What if there are a bet and a raise on the turn? Can you call? Suddenly, your odds don’t look so good.

Chasing speculative hands, especially when you’re out of position, is a good way to diminish your bankroll.

[/ QUOTE ]

The right answer is F) Not into info. What kind of player is the raiser? What about the bettor? Only hand you don't like here is a set, because you can hit your draw and still lose. You have 6 clean outs to a straight, 3 of which give you the sucker end of the straight, and 2 partial outs. I think if you are against passive players and know it will only cost you the two bets to see the turn and one bet the see the river, you should call. But if its against Lags, get out of the way.

Re: Quiz from Phil Gordon\'s website
 

[ QUOTE ]
This is wrong in my opinion.

Even if you just have 6 outs, 85-20 is actually plenty good to call with 6 outs considering all those outs are very clean and you have good implied odds.

In a three-handed pot with this many outs, even if you get reraised and have to pay more on the flop, your odds are generally good enough that putting in 3 bets or even 4 against two opponents is a fine proposition.

And, finally, usually we DO have 8 outs. In a three way field, the vast majority of the time a flush draw is NOT out. With 8 outs we are actually about dead even hot-and-cold against 2 opponents.


Folding here would be a substantial mistake in my opinion.


And, yes, I tend to think betting this flop is the correct play. Often that will allow us to take the pot down unimproved on the flop or turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

What he said, for the win!

Re: Quiz from Phil Gordon\'s website
 

[ QUOTE ]
the second opponent raises to $20. There is $65 in the pot.


The pot is offering you $85/$20, or a little better than 4-to-1 on your call.



[/ QUOTE ]

I sure I'm missing something but how does it jump from 3.25:1 from to 4.25:1?

Also, if we're in the big blind and there are only 2 MP limpers, why does it say that we decide to call?

The wording and the math is driving me crazy.

Re: Quiz from Phil Gordon\'s website
 

FWIW, not all of your 6 outs are guaranteed to be good, as a T could make someone a K-high straight. Again, though, this is read-based and against two unknown opponents, I would call 2 on the flop (and would also have led out the flop). If I make my straight with the third heart on the board, I'm leading & hoping I don't get raised.

Re: Quiz from Phil Gordon\'s website
 

[ QUOTE ]
how do you bet 10$ on the flop if it is 5$ 10$ limit holdem?

No wonder Phil Gordon is so good, he can bet as much as he wants in limit!

[/ QUOTE ]


blinds are 5-10, i.e. playing 10-20

And seriously, who doesn't bet this flop from the blind with an up and down straight draw?