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-   -   TP with a Draw (http://archives2.twoplustwo.com/showthread.php?t=321249)

Jester999 08-23-2005 04:09 PM

TP with a Draw
 
No reads. First orbit. $100 NL Party Poker

UTG limps, UTG+1 ($100) min raises, UTG +2 ($30) calls, I ($100) call with Jc 9c, BB calls, UTG calls.

Flop is:
4c, 9h, 5c

Check, check, UTG+1 bets $4, UTG+2 makes it $15 to go.

Action's on you. Got a plan?

zambonidrivr 08-23-2005 04:32 PM

Re: TP with a Draw
 
fold preflop, and it's not even close.

Jester999 08-23-2005 04:32 PM

Re: TP with a Draw
 
[ QUOTE ]
fold preflop, and it's not even close.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not the question.

zambonidrivr 08-23-2005 04:38 PM

Re: TP with a Draw
 
alright fine. top pair is not good. i think you would agree with that. if it is, someone is telling you it isn't. i am not sure about you, but the overbet usually says something at such micro limits. hard to tell from your details but it costs you 14-15 to call a pot of 20 something? thats less than 2:1 and not giving you proper odds to draw to the 4th best flush. i get out especially as this is the first orbit and you don't likely have reads on these donks yet.

so you pushed right....? what happened?

zambonidrivr 08-23-2005 04:42 PM

Re: TP with a Draw
 
in addition, there are others to act behind you. semi bluffing is good against 1 opponent, maybe 2 if they are both donks, but 3? utg check is suspicious.

Jester999 08-23-2005 04:45 PM

Re: TP with a Draw
 
Okay...here I'll help you a bit for clarity. The pot on the flop is $10 (5 players x $2 a piece). Then on the flop the pfr bets $4 and is raised to $15. Okay, this is where it gets tricky. If you add $10 (original pot) + $4 (initial post flop bet) + $15 (the raise)= $29 in the middle. $15 to me. And no, I don't think top pair is good.

Back to you, Brunson.

Jester999 08-23-2005 04:47 PM

Re: TP with a Draw
 
[ QUOTE ]
utg check is suspicious.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why? He limped called in a multiway pot. What's so suspicious about that?

Jester999 08-23-2005 04:48 PM

Re: TP with a Draw
 
[ QUOTE ]
in addition, there are others to act behind you. semi bluffing is good against 1 opponent, maybe 2 if they are both donks, but 3? utg check is suspicious.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. Semi-bluffing multiple players is suicidal unless your draw is huge. This one is not. It's rather weak.

zambonidrivr 08-23-2005 04:55 PM

Re: TP with a Draw
 
Thanks Daniel. Still not getting odds, and you still have players to act behind. Since there are 2 diamonds on the board so anyone is a jackass to not lead out with trips (IMHO), so to your point, utg 1 that checked the flop is a moron, unless he was sure someone would raise this pot with the intention to raising. in short scottie, u don't have much, and your draw could be dead. these low stakes games are a joke and so easy to beat. don't get caught in a bad spot when you can crush these people playing good solid poker.

doyle

ScottTheFish 08-23-2005 05:05 PM

Re: TP with a Draw
 
[ QUOTE ]
fold preflop, and it's not even close.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're right about it not being close. Easy call unless the table has been unusually aggressive preflop. It's at least 3 way and at least 1 of the blinds will come along. I'm on the button. Cheap minraise. I'll look at a flop here every time.

And this is pretty much the flop we're looking for. Unfortunately they're going crazy in front of me. I don't love a 9 or J because there could already be a set out...So really all I have is my flush draw. Fold equity is minimal at best. with no reads I'm tempted to fold. If I play I need to push and I don't want to play for my stack here.

Jester999 08-23-2005 05:34 PM

Re: TP with a Draw
 
[ QUOTE ]
Thanks Daniel. Still not getting odds, and you still have players to act behind. Since there are 2 diamonds on the board so anyone is a jackass to not lead out with trips (IMHO)

[/ QUOTE ]

It's been my experience that short stacks will try and slowplay bigger hands like sets in this spot even with a draw heavy board. So, I'm not willing to give the shortstack that much credit...yet.

[ QUOTE ]
...so to your point, utg 1 that checked the flop is a moron

[/ QUOTE ]

UTG checked after the big blind checked. UTG+1 made a weak continuation bet of $4.

[ QUOTE ]
unless he was sure someone would raise this pot with the intention to raising. in short scottie, u don't have much, and your draw could be dead.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll try get thru this drivel much of which qualifies as incoherent. Here's what I have. I have two checks, a weak bet, and a raise from shortie and I'm now getting 2 to 1. The first two checks might just mean weakness and the $4 continuation bet might also mean weakness. So, I actually might be ahead in the hand. UTG+2's raise could mean a wide variety of hands. So, I might have the best hand. Maybe I'll fold, maybe I'll call, maybe I'll raise. Those are my options right?

[ QUOTE ]
these low stakes games are a joke and so easy to beat. don't get caught in a bad spot when you can crush these people playing good solid poker.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree these low limit games aren't difficult, but I'm calling in position with a suited one gapper all day long. As far being in a bad spot, I'm in position with an interesting hand and that's all. If I don't to play, I lay it down and it cost me $2 to see a flop. A really good player once told me, 'When you're out of position look for reasons to fold. When you're in position look for reasons to play.'

And I for one would like to thank you for deigning to take the time to help those of us in the 'kiddie pool'. I for one am honored to have your unrivaled experise and insight contributing to my thread.

It's left me all tingly.

Do you do any coaching?

Jester999 08-23-2005 05:39 PM

Re: TP with a Draw
 
[ QUOTE ]
If I play I need to push and I don't want to play for my stack here.

[/ QUOTE ]

You absolutely cannot push here with this many enemy. My first gut reaction was to raise enough to put shortie all in and fold to heavy action back to me. Again, shorty's coming along but against his range of hands I don't feel terrible. The only problem is that I've put 30% of my stack at risk. Seems like quite a leap.

RiverFenix 08-23-2005 05:42 PM

Re: TP with a Draw
 
I would like overcalls here with the A of clubs but in this situation id minraise and expect only UTG+2 to come along since its only 15 more to him. You have a hand already with a good redraw, id expect to win this HU.

I only play 6max so this may not be the best advice for full.

ScottTheFish 08-23-2005 05:43 PM

Re: TP with a Draw
 
[ QUOTE ]


You absolutely cannot push here with this many enemy.

[/ QUOTE ]

I know, that's why i said I wouldn't do it. This spot sucks. None of your choices are very appealing. I vote for fold, but in the heat of battle I'm not sure what I would do.

What did you do and what happened?

Jester999 08-23-2005 05:48 PM

Re: TP with a Draw
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]


You absolutely cannot push here with this many enemy.

[/ QUOTE ]

I know, that's why i said I wouldn't do it. This spot sucks. None of your choices are very appealing. I vote for fold, but in the heat of battle I'm not sure what I would do.

What did you do and what happened?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah I know you were basically advocating a fold. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] I wasn't calling you out at all. Thanks for posting.

And I'm just waiting to see if Brunson has anymore pearls of wisdom.

zambonidrivr 08-23-2005 06:01 PM

Re: TP with a Draw
 
Hey Brunson here.

Fold preflop donkey. NH. My guess is that you called the $15 without odds and hit the flush, only to get crushed by a higher flush. Nice call, gg. HOH vol 1&2 would be a good starting point for you. GL!

Jester999 08-23-2005 06:22 PM

Re: TP with a Draw
 
You had me at 'fold preflop'. Please don't change. You are truly a marvel. All the name calling and talking down your nose is righteous. Take off your shirt immediately and 'pose down' in the nearest mirror. You've earned it!

Seriously, anyone reading this thread fold this hand for $2 preflop?

jhall23 08-23-2005 06:39 PM

Re: TP with a Draw
 
[ QUOTE ]


Seriously, anyone reading this thread fold this hand for $2 preflop?

[/ QUOTE ]

No

crosse91 08-23-2005 06:43 PM

Re: TP with a Draw
 
yes.

i do fold here.

however, since we're focusing on your postflop play, thats a fold too.

crosse91 08-23-2005 06:44 PM

Re: TP with a Draw
 
btw, what seat are you in?? if in button/co then the preflop call is decent/acceptable. If you're in mp, then no. PLus its hard to figure out w/o stack sizes.

ScottTheFish 08-23-2005 06:48 PM

Re: TP with a Draw
 
[ QUOTE ]
btw, what seat are you in?? if in button/co then the preflop call is decent/acceptable. If you're in mp, then no. PLus its hard to figure out w/o stack sizes.

[/ QUOTE ]

True, I assumed you were on the button or CO. In MP I don't like the call preflop.

Jester999 08-23-2005 07:04 PM

Re: TP with a Draw
 
I'm in the CO and the stack sizes are posted. The only guys I left out were the BB and UTG. Assume around $100 for them.

elus2 08-23-2005 07:08 PM

Re: TP with a Draw
 
it is easy for utg+1 to fold here if you come over top. the hands he calls with will be close to 50% equity versus your pair+flush draw heads up. the question is how good is your equity multiway with the shortstack for the main pot if your push gets called. i'd say that you have more than ample equity considering the hands that each of your opponents are holding. The only scenario in which you are a huge dog is when one of them holds a higher flush draw (A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]) and the other holds two pair or better. Even then you will only be a big dog for the main pot and will most likely coinflip for the side pot.

Wolffink 08-24-2005 05:00 PM

Re: TP with a Draw
 
This is an interesting hand. I think folding is safer, but I'd probably push here. You probably either have the best hand or best draw. UTG+1 raise isn't how people typically play sets. He wants people out. Even if he does have a set, you have outs.

So push. If you don't push, fold.

Jester999 08-24-2005 05:17 PM

Re: TP with a Draw
 
[ QUOTE ]
This is an interesting hand. I think folding is safer, but I'd probably push here. You probably either have the best hand or best draw. UTG+1 raise isn't how people typically play sets. He wants people out. Even if he does have a set, you have outs.

So push. If you don't push, fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

I just don't think pushing is the right play with this many people in the hand. I'll ask again because this sucker resurfaces. What about raising enough to put the villain in and folding to heavy action. I get about 30% of my stack in and still may have to fold. To overextended?

elus2 08-24-2005 05:40 PM

Re: TP with a Draw
 
it is because there are so many people in the hand that you to push. versus the nutflush draw you have the best hand. versus other hands that call you usually have a good draw. there's a lot of dead money in there and getting it headsup versus the short stack isn't bad. if the other guy gets in the pot when you push your equity is still good over his range of hands for both he main and side pots unless one happens to hold two pair/set/over-pair and the other has AdKd type of drawing hand. the preflop raiser folds enough hands to get you heads up with the shortstack who you're more than likely on a coin flip against.

Allinlife 08-24-2005 05:59 PM

Re: TP with a Draw
 
[ QUOTE ]
fold preflop, and it's not even close.

[/ QUOTE ]
wtf get outta here.

however I think folding on the flop is fine here.. calling looks much worse than raising and raising commits you.. hm tough spot actaully.


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