Berating Weak Players At The Poker Table
 

Picture this: You are sitting at a full ring game at your normal game at your normal limit. There is a player at your table who obviously doesn’t know what they are doing and continues to make bad play after bad play. Sometimes he sucks out but most of the time he donates to the pot. He is definitely a player I like to see at my table.

Then another player sits down, folds every hand 15 times and then finally raises a pot and plays a strong hand properly. That weak player at the table gambles with the new player, who will soon be our “offender”. Sure enough, the new player at the table who has only played one hand gets sucked out on and he starts to complain about what a weak play his opponent (the fish) made. The “fish” was probably proud of his play, probably proud of his win, and probably is not considering changing his style of play (good for us, right?) But when the new player at the table starts to go on about why the play was bad, the fish starts to tighten up to save future embarrassment and maybe even decides to read a few pages on the internet as to how to play “better” (bad for us, tight?) A few moments ago, he was thinking he was playing winning poker.

To not berate a bad play or player is fairly common advice. I have read it in numerous places, and I fully support the concept of encouraging a bad player to continue thinking that they are playing well. But the advice which I have read tends to suggest that as a good player, one should not berate weak players. I have seen nothing so far about how to deal with someone else at your table who is berating weak play. Unfortunately, it seems to me that this happens fairly regularily in online poker.

My question then, is how to educate the so-called offender of either a benefit or the many benefits of not committing this act of berating weak play and how to explain it in such a way that does neither compound the problem by confronting the issue of the play being weak nor does it instigate more steam into the already heated "offender".

I am very interested in any comments on this topic!
Thanks for reading.

Re: Berating Weak Players At The Poker Table
 

There is nothing you can do except move on. The TA rock that berates the common player has issues. Poker is more than a game to him-- it's a venue for drama. So just leave. Just like the weak tights who are no longer having fun.

Online, you can "tag and release" via the notes feature in PT, and then search for the 'buddies' you like to play with. Do that. Automated tools make this very simple.

The socalled strong player that berates the fun-type players may be strong, but odor isnt everything. He stinketh.

Re: Berating Weak Players At The Poker Table
 

I usually back the fish when this happens. By backing the fish, I mean getting the rock to start talking to me. Jump in and yell "POT ODDS!" or something. I don't want to leave, I just want to save the table. So maybe I insult the supertight guy a little bit. Talk about how he doesn't play postflop well and thats why he plays so few hands. Whatever it takes to get the fish feeling better and the rock on a little tilt.

Re: Berating Weak Players At The Poker Table
 

Normally I don't say anything. A few months ago some guy made a horrendous call on the flop and spiked some sort of outlandish runner-runner draw and took down a fairly big pot. The player who lost at the showdown was still berating him five hands later. I asked the player doing the berating did he want the calls or didn't he? He stated that he did but his problem was that he was a much better player than the live one and he thought the live one had somehow challenged that notion. I didn't really want to get into it that deeply. I was hoping that the berater would see that these calls were what he wanted and he had to pay the price of the occasional suckout. However, his comment revealed how he was feeling and it basically was what I've stated in the past as to why the beraters do what they do. So I thought what the heck I'll discuss it more. I pointed out that there was no evidence the live one thought he was better than him; the live one hadn't gloated at all and in fact hadn't said anything in taking the pot (the live one is taking this all in btw); and that his motivation was simply that he wanted to gambool and have fun which was different than the his, the beraters motivation. It went along with what I've written before is that berater takes the beat personally. These players seem to be for the most part inexperienced and have probably read a book or two and tend to play much tighter than their opponents and thus believe they are much better players. I don't think I'll do this again (I wouldn't recommend what I did) but it was one confirmation of what I've thought. These guys need to get a lot more experience with suckouts [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img].

Re: Berating Weak Players At The Poker Table
 

You can defend him and his play. Say "nice hand", and "don't mind him, nice play".

This also has the benefit of having others tag you as a fish.

I Like Your Approach A Great Deal (n/m)
 

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Re: Berating Weak Players At The Poker Table
 

Tell the offender to f off. No really, tell the person youll email support for bothering you, then tell the person that really doesnt know what they are doing to ignore the guy and praise him every time he sucks someone out.

Re: Berating Weak Players At The Poker Table
 

[ QUOTE ]
My question then, is how to educate the so-called offender of either a benefit or the many benefits of not committing this act of berating weak play and how to explain it in such a way that does neither compound the problem by confronting the issue of the play being weak nor does it instigate more steam into the already heated "offender".


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You don't 'educate' the offender. Why teach him anything? This is a sign that the guy definitely isn't as good as he thinks he is. He's only stronger than the weakies because he can play strong hands and folds more than the average fish. yay.

Just take the side of the fish. All you have to really say is that the guy can play however he wants. Commend the fish that it's tough to put him on a hand.

If it gets real bad, you can always say how if everyone folded and didn't give the A-Hole any action, then everyone would have to hear about that too.

Another one I've used at times is to tell the nit to turn his hand face up if he doesn't want callers. Some morons actually do it. To them it's just about their hand holding up and winning pots. Nothing in between.

I actually get a little joy out of seeing those idiots twist and cry. What's really funny is when they pull a major suckout shortly after they just get done berating someone. Oh, but THEN it's perfectly ok...

b

Re: Berating Weak Players At The Poker Table
 

I'm too honest to even pretend that I think fishy play is correct, and I don't like saying things like "Let him be a fish; that's where the money comes from." At the table either. Just tell the TC that he's being a jackass, which he is.

To TC: "Did you buy his chips? No? Then why should you get to play his cards?"
To Fish: "Don't mind him, his girlfriend probably just broke up with him or something. Nice hand man, nice hand."

Re: Berating Weak Players At The Poker Table
 

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I'm too honest to even pretend that I think fishy play is correct,

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It is correct if he's just there to have fun isn't it?

b

Re: Berating Weak Players At The Poker Table
 

Very smart. I'm gonna start doing that. I always get so annoyed when I see this happen, but I always figure that anything I try to add will just make things worse. "POT ODDS, MAN!" That's brilliant. Fish pegs you as a "Friend" and has his ego stroked. And a$$hole may get tilty.

Re: Berating Weak Players At The Poker Table
 

I have been known to make a technically true but not truly helpful remark that sounds supportive.

"Hey, that's why they deal five cards to the board, man."

Re: Berating Weak Players At The Poker Table
 

I go off sometimes, emotional tilt. Mostly I just don't chat at all, but on bad nights when I keep taking beat after beat, I just wish the damn fish would fold their freaking 5 out draws...

Not usually, but sometimes.

Last night I was losing, but not due to beats, just couldn't pull cards and it didn't bother me much. Hard to berate someone when I'm the one failing to get cards or missing all the flush/straight draws.

Re: Berating Weak Players At The Poker Table
 

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I have been known to make a technically true but not truly helpful remark that sounds supportive.

"Hey, that's why they deal five cards to the board, man."

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It's not 2 card stud! [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

b

Re: Berating Weak Players At The Poker Table
 

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I'm too honest to even pretend that I think fishy play is correct,

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It is correct if he's just there to have fun isn't it?

b

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Excellent point. Though I'm not sure "Don't tell him what to do; he's not trying to make money," would be a great thing to say either. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Berating Weak Players At The Poker Table
 

I always treat this behavior as an invitation for me to verbally attack the attacker. From my point of view, he's screwing with my potential profit, and I'm not about to let that happen.

Anything along the lines of "let him play how he wants" works well, but if I'm in a mood, I will usually begin inserting dubious support evidence into the conversation, backing the fish's play. Phrases like "he had the right odds" and "he was pot-committed at that point" work wonders. Also, insulting the TC's play, which almost always is a bit weak given the strength and vulnerability of their hand, is effective. I never let this stuff go. If I can get the TC to start attacking me, then I have won...because not only will the fish think I'm his buddy now, but also the TC will make it his life's mission to bust me.

Re: Berating Weak Players At The Poker Table
 

Yeah, I ask, are you giving lessons? or I just defend his play "How could he fold?!" "I don't think I could have folded that hand" Stuff like that.

Also if I'm generally in a friendly mood I attempt to make an effort to talk to the fish in just friendly conversation. I think if the table coaches see me doing this it has a multiway effect. First, they might get led by example and at least not be a dick. Second, people are generally less likely to get attacky at a friendly table and friendly conversation leads to that. They are more likely to just sit there and stew. Finally, I think they'll be less likely to attack someone who has a friend/ally at the table, and with many of the regulars they'll be even less likely if it's me (not necesarily because they think i'm any good, but maybe because we've at least been cordial in the past and attacking my friend now is sort of attacking me too, easy to do to tourists harder to do to someone you see every day). Finally, if they do get criticized/verbally attacked I'm very quick to jump to their defense if we've already been engaged in friendly conversation.


Online it's much easier. You just insult the table coach and draw his ire to you. Really annoying though is when they are like "goofball, you're good, Im' good xxxxx isgood, this guy's a total fish." Then you know he has your PT stats and isn't going to buy for a second any kind of act. If that happens just private invite them to a table and tell them to stfu as someone suggested.

Re: Berating Weak Players At The Poker Table
 

Dont even bother talking about 'odds' and 'pot committed'.. it may just intimidate the casual players. Just side with the fish and protect them like the gold that they are.

Re: Berating Weak Players At The Poker Table
 

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Dont even bother talking about 'odds' and 'pot committed'.. it may just intimidate the casual players. Just side with the fish and protect them like the gold that they are.

[/ QUOTE ] Actually, I have found that there is enough poker jargon in the culture today that you can throw these words around like that, but only if you do it incorrectly.

Re: Berating Weak Players At The Poker Table
 

I had a similar situation in a $2-4 B&M game. There was a know-it-all, who was analyzing everyone's moves.

After an hour or so, I got him in a pretty big pot (maybe 12 BB on the turn) He bet, and all I had was a gutshot draw, but with the pot odds, it was a clear call. Anywho, of course I sucked out (had the nuts) and dented pretty bad his stack when he wouldn't give up on the pot on the river. When he saw my cards -- Vesuvius erupts -- he's on my tail thereafter (which is major +ev, since I'm getting everyone's sympathy and throwing him on tilt).

A short while later after his chips had become my chips, I couldn't help myself and said -- "You know, if you're as good as you think you are, you wouldn't be playing $2-4", which set off the Volcano again. The ultimate justice then occurred as the poker room manager called the gendarmes to escort him from the casino.

Re: Berating Weak Players At The Poker Table
 

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I had a similar situation in a $2-4 B&M game...Anywho, of course I sucked out (had the nuts) and dented pretty bad his stack when he wouldn't give up on the pot on the river.

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LOL...you dented his stack by taking an extra $12 bucks from him?

Re: Berating Weak Players At The Poker Table
 

there is no point in berating the fish in a limit game lower than 15/30 b/c the chance of you taking lots of money off him is pretty low.

in a deep 5/10NL game it might put the fish on tilt which is more understandable since he could in essence dump his stack to you for thousands...

Re: Berating Weak Players At The Poker Table
 

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LOL...you dented his stack by taking an extra $12 bucks from him?

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No, we were heads up, so the three-bet cap was off. I think grabbed an extra $28 from him on the river. (which can dent a stack in a 2-4 game).

As I said, I determined that I had the nuts -- and I stopped and rechecked as each of us kept raising. So, I was determined to re-raise until he checked or I ran out of chips.

Re: Berating Weak Players At The Poker Table
 

Get the attacker onto your buddies list. Make notes. See if it is a one-off or if he does this on a regular basis, which indicates low intelligence and bad instincts. Hunt him down and play him as often as possible. Very, very lucrative. Be the guy he catches calling his raise with 7,8 suited. He will snap and dump a huge load of cash on the table. Learn to love him.

Re: Berating Weak Players At The Poker Table
 

I give the fish support by saying things like "gutsy call!" or "wow, that took balls!" or "that's why you gotta take chances!" It's funny, but I find that the tight player then turns and attacks ME. This is usually the type of player who truly believes he DESERVES to win every time he has the best hand pre-flop (or on the flop) and gets his money in. It's really fun to needle these players because they think the poker universe owes them something and find it a great injustice when they lose. They don't get the fact that AA will still lose to 2-7 offsuit 1 in 10 times. I think Ed Miller put it this way: if there's a 10% chance of rain, you shouldn't be mad about getting wet. Those player are almost as profitable because they're so predictable.

Re: Berating Weak Players At The Poker Table
 

yeah. "hey, you never know" is one of my favorites.

Re: Berating Weak Players At The Poker Table
 

I berated a weak player today online, and he ended up leaving the table. I didn't make fun of him for sucking out on me. I made fun of him for getting so brutally outplayed by me. It made me feel better, but I had to leave the table afterwards because there weren't enough weak players.

I almost never do this.

Re: Berating Weak Players At The Poker Table
 

I need to chill out with berating the players. Today I was multitabling 50NL, 2 tables at once. I took a brutal beat on one of my tables got beat on the river by a 5 outer. I got so mad and left the table. Then 5 minutes later on the other table some guy bluffed all-in on an open ended straight draw on the turn. I had top pair and a flush draw and he caught his 6 outer on the river. I went nuts and told him how much of an underdog he was, etc and told him that hes a piece of [censored], cock sucker, etc.

I NEVER do this when I play live. I am not that type of person. There is something about online play that makes me do this sometimes. I try not to, its a problem. When I play live I am often friendly and chatty and I find people don't play back at me much because of this. Mabye I should try friendly conversation online?

Any advice? I am not a mean person but I just get so mad when I get sucked out on for my whole stack. I am trying to moveup limits and I take it personally when these ppl suckout on me and fawkup my goal

Re: Berating Weak Players At The Poker Table
 

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Any advice? I am not a mean person but I just get so mad when I get sucked out on for my whole stack. I am trying to moveup limits and I take it personally when these ppl suckout on me and fawkup my goal

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You need advice on not typing mean things in the chat box? How about... not typing mean things in the chat box? It's a conscious act. Just don't do it.

Depending on the limit, it can also be really effective to deprecate the stakes you're playing for. "Oh no, a hundred dollar pot, now you're going to have to get a second job!" It embarrasses the abuser and gets everyone thinking about the game the way you want--a fun diversion for an insignificant amount of money.

Re: Berating Weak Players At The Poker Table
 

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I berated a weak player today online, and he ended up leaving the table. I didn't make fun of him for sucking out on me. I made fun of him for getting so brutally outplayed by me. It made me feel better, but I had to leave the table afterwards because there weren't enough weak players.

I almost never do this.

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Think about what you are doing. Frankly, you have to be a complete idiot to drive away your source of income.

You Guys Are Tapping on the Aquarium
 

Let's see if I understand you guys correctly: There's someone at the table who's making what you see as a huge mistake, one that will cost her a lot of money in the long run if she keeps making it. And you want to "educate" her out of it? Or you want to attack her and verbally humiliate her when she makes this mistake?

I don't know about you, but I love having that sort of player at my table. She adds to my bottom line, and I have more fun when she's in the game. Does your need to feel superior take really precedence over both making more money and having more fun?

Re: Berating Weak Players At The Poker Table
 

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Get the attacker onto your buddies list. Make notes. See if it is a one-off or if he does this on a regular basis, which indicates low intelligence and bad instincts.

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I think thats a fallacy and you'd only be fooling yourself to think that the table coach is a bad player. To be honest the table coach is rarely the best player at the table but usually hes well above the average and can play a marginal winning game at the stakes he's at. I've run into very few table coachs who I didn't think were capable of beating the game we were in.

Berating the fish has alot more to do with the lack of self control rather then lack of intelligence. I guess you could argue they are one in the same. However, these players are susceptible to going on tilt although rarely does any 1 hand cause it but rather a string of consecutive beats.

Re: Berating Weak Players At The Poker Table
 

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Get the attacker onto your buddies list. Make notes. See if it is a one-off or if he does this on a regular basis, which indicates low intelligence and bad instincts.

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I think thats a fallacy and you'd only be fooling yourself to think that the table coach is a bad player. To be honest the table coach is rarely the best player at the table but usually hes well above the average and can play a marginal winning game at the stakes he's at. I've run into very few table coachs who I didn't think were capable of beating the game we were in.

Berating the fish has alot more to do with the lack of self control rather then lack of intelligence. I guess you could argue they are one in the same. However, these players are susceptible to going on tilt although rarely does any 1 hand cause it but rather a string of consecutive beats.

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It is definitely a lack of intelligence - if you play for money, finding and gutting the fish is half the battle.

Re: Berating Weak Players At The Poker Table
 

Here's what you say to the berater-

"You're just mad that you lost. Go cry to your mommy."

Or better yet, "YSSCKY".

Now you have a good player on tilt, and a bad player who's happy because you are on his side!

Re: Berating Weak Players At The Poker Table
 

I wish it was more socially unacceptable for players to berate bad players at the poker table. Instead, the rest of the players just sit there and try to pretend like it's not happening, while the fish who's getting berated either tightens up or leaves sooner than he would have. If it was totally unacceptable to berate other players for their play, the rest of the table would have less problem telling the obnoxious idiots to shut up. However, most players think of table coaches as being just an unfortunate aspect of poker that cannot be avoided.

Re: Berating Weak Players At The Poker Table
 

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I wish it was more socially unacceptable for players to berate bad players at the poker table. Instead, the rest of the players just sit there and try to pretend like it's not happening, while the fish who's getting berated either tightens up or leaves sooner than he would have. If it was totally unacceptable to berate other players for their play, the rest of the table would have less problem telling the obnoxious idiots to shut up. However, most players think of table coaches as being just an unfortunate aspect of poker that cannot be avoided.

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I'll never stand for it at my table. What is the Email at Party for abuse, anyways? I'm gonna just start reporting people who ruin good tables.

Re: Berating Weak Players At The Poker Table
 

What would you guys do if you saw two sharks berating each other? Hop on one's side and try to get the other on tilt?

Re: Berating Weak Players At The Poker Table
 

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[ QUOTE ]
I wish it was more socially unacceptable for players to berate bad players at the poker table. Instead, the rest of the players just sit there and try to pretend like it's not happening, while the fish who's getting berated either tightens up or leaves sooner than he would have. If it was totally unacceptable to berate other players for their play, the rest of the table would have less problem telling the obnoxious idiots to shut up. However, most players think of table coaches as being just an unfortunate aspect of poker that cannot be avoided.

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I'll never stand for it at my table. What is the Email at Party for abuse, anyways? I'm gonna just start reporting people who ruin good tables.

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What are you trying to do, get the live ones barred or something?

Re: Berating Weak Players At The Poker Table
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I wish it was more socially unacceptable for players to berate bad players at the poker table. Instead, the rest of the players just sit there and try to pretend like it's not happening, while the fish who's getting berated either tightens up or leaves sooner than he would have. If it was totally unacceptable to berate other players for their play, the rest of the table would have less problem telling the obnoxious idiots to shut up. However, most players think of table coaches as being just an unfortunate aspect of poker that cannot be avoided.

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I'll never stand for it at my table. What is the Email at Party for abuse, anyways? I'm gonna just start reporting people who ruin good tables.

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What are you trying to do, get the live ones barred or something?

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???
No, the players who abuse them.

Re: Berating Weak Players At The Poker Table
 

Read this thread for advice because I've seen this a couple of times online (not live).

I just started playing at Party a month or so ago and thus got access to to biggest fishpond I've ever seen: the beginner's section. The highest limit there is 1/2, but the .50/1 has almost the same size average pot as the the 1/2. And there are almost always games with at least 11-12 averages (at .50/1!). At EVERY table I've played there, there's at least one person with a VP$P over 85. Soft.

One day I saw a table with an $18 average, so I got myself on the list. And there he was: the uberfish. He was the worst player I've ever seen. I played that table for 4 hours and saw him make $50 rebuys at least 8 times. And I got my share of that $400. But when I joined the table, there was a guy who was needling him: "how much have you lost so far? Isn't that about $300?" and like that. I could not believe that Mr. Needler would be saying that -- let him drop as much as he wants, fer chrissakes!! (Based on that chat, I'd guess he dropped near $1000 that night: playing .50/1!!!) I saw uberfish the next day, but only for about an hour (and $200) before he disappeared. He's not been back since, as far as I can tell. Shame. And shame on Mr. Needler.

I saw a similarly horrible player, who was about 99.9 VP$P, getting cursed out another day by a different player. The amusing thing was that Mr. Angry was playing with Mr. 99.9 the next day too!! Seems Angry loved 99.9's money, but couldn't stand the suckouts!!

I just don't understand these people -- why be mean to the producers? And, of course, I love the irony of these people berating others for their inferior play ON THE BEGINNER'S TABLES!! I mean, I'm not a true beginner either, but at least I know enough to keep my mouth SHUT.