Potowatomi collusion
 

I'm used to playing mainly SNGs onlin and am relatively inexperienced in B&M cardrooms. Anyway, this happened to me the other day at Potowatomi in Milwaukee. I'd like to know what the proper way to handle this would have been:

I'm playing 2/4 and 3 of the other players were college students who obviously knew each other. Over the course of a few hours at the table, the following took place:

1) The 'leader' of the college group "jokingly" said to the other two guys to 'give him a signal' if they have a good hand. Dealer says nothing.

2) I'm in a hand with 2 of the guys. I bet the river. The first to act after me looks at the other guy and says, "Are you going to call?" I object, they both fold. I call the floor over, nothing is done other than the floor reminding these guys that there is only one player per hand allowed.

3) It's a kill pot. Before the cards are dealt, the leader of their group whispers to the guy on his right (one of his friends) to 'bump it up'. Leader, who is UTG, raises, his friend to his right re-raises.

At this point, I had had enough and had the floor called over again. They did not seem to think that this was a big deal. Instead of throwing these guys out, the floor told me that I was making a 'very serious accusation' (collusion) and that I should watch what I accuse people of. This is even though the dealer and another player both heard this guy tell his friend to raise pre-flop before the cards were dealt.

At this point, I got up and left the casino. Would this type of thing ever fly in Vegas or was it too much for me to expect the floor to at the very least break this group of guys up?

BTW, I also noticed that any time one of them would bet post flop, the guy to his left would always raise. Once a person who was not in their group would drop out of the hand, the action would slow, there would be a bet and a fold w/o a hand being shown down the vast majority of the time. This was all pointed out to the staff of the poker room, in addition to the comments that they were making to each other, but fell on deaf ears.

Re: Potowatomi collusion
 

I've seen people banned for much, much less.

Re: Potowatomi collusion
 

I'm actually shocked. I would have protested much, much more vigorously, and would have done so the first time they colluded to push someone out. That's probably the most blatant collusion post I've read in this forum, and that's saying something.

Re: Potowatomi collusion
 

I was extremely angry, just as much with the staff as I was with the guilty parties. I had wintnesses (including the dealer) but the guy was a semi-regular and they said that it was 'just his personality' and that I needed to be careful before making 'such a serious accusation'.

What really got me mad was that one of the guys got away with calling me a '[censored] narc' and that the guy who said to raise it up used as an excuse the fact that he did it before the cards were dealt. He didn't even deny telling his friend to raise pre-flop! The idiots running the poker room thought that this was actually an excuse!

Needless to say, I am not planning on ever returning to Potowatomi.

Re: Potowatomi collusion
 

The 'bump it up' comment in teh kill pot would have made me get up and force the play to stop until they were booted from teh table, absolutely 100% collusion and should not be allowed.

Re: Potowatomi collusion
 

I was actually completely stunned like I was in a dream after I called the floor over after the 'bump it up' comment only to have the floor reprimand me for making serious accusations.

Nobody seemed to understand that these guys were colluding and they actually bought his excuse that it was okay to say this because he did it before the cards were dealt.

I left wishing that I could write a letter to somebody or something, but what are you going to do when the floor doesn't see a problem with this kind of behavior?

Re: Potowatomi collusion
 

That's amazingly blatant.

The floor decision is atrocious...enough to where I would never return to that casino, AND...a letter to the casino manager would not be a bad idea, even if it was ultimately fruitless.

And...I would hate to think how I would have reacted to the "narc" remark from the colluder.

Re: Potowatomi collusion
 

I don't know how the 'floor' works (never been inside a rela casino) but if there are multiple floormen can't you call for another person for a second opinion. Also I would have said "Well, I AM making that serious accusation, I've thought about and yes, these assholes are colluding, 100%, no grey area, I'm accusing them."

Re: Potowatomi collusion
 

Im completely on your side on this whole subject...but...how could telling the guy to raise before anyone sees his cards be colluding?

Sounds like chip spewing to me. Im sure they were tryng to intimidate everyone and definately were out of line, but I just dont see how they get any advantage from raising blind.

Re: Potowatomi collusion
 

I am not sure how bad the Bump it up comment is. I have been at tables where people get crazy and just cap PF blind. Its not like there is an advantage there for them. The advantage in that scenario is actually yours, since you dont have any money in the pot yet, and can only enter is with premiums. The always raising people out, and then signal comments are collustion. But the blind raising is usually just for fun.

C-Dog

Re: Potowatomi collusion
 

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I don't know how the 'floor' works (never been inside a rela casino) but if there are multiple floormen can't you call for another person for a second opinion. Also I would have said "Well, I AM making that serious accusation, I've thought about and yes, these assholes are colluding, 100%, no grey area, I'm accusing them."

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That's basically what I said: I AM making a serious accusation... because they ARE colluding. I think the other players at the table just wanted it to be a 'friendly' 2/4 game and I was viewed as the guy who was getting loud and ruining the good time.

Of course, I got loud after being blown off by the floor. All he did (after scolding me for my accusation) is remind the guy (by name, since he knew him and seemed to like him) that he shouldn't be talking during the play. Kind of like, 'just make the crazy loud guy (me) happy and stay quiet for a while.'

Then the dealer looks at me and says all sternly, "It's OVER."

That's when I left, more angry than I have been in years. As for the guy who called me a narc, the funny thing is that I really am a cop. I left wishing that it was an underground game, because I don't think that those punks would have made it out in one piece.

Re: Potowatomi collusion
 

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I am not sure how bad the Bump it up comment is. I have been at tables where people get crazy and just cap PF blind. Its not like there is an advantage there for them. The advantage in that scenario is actually yours, since you dont have any money in the pot yet, and can only enter is with premiums. The always raising people out, and then signal comments are collustion. But the blind raising is usually just for fun.

C-Dog

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Say nobody had heard their comment and also that the other players at the table were relatively weak. So, there's $7 in the pot pre-flop. UTG raises and his buddy re-raises. If nobody has a strong hand, they take the kill and both blinds w/o any problem. Then of course, if somebody does call, they're playing the hand 2 against 1. How is that not an advantage???

Re: Potowatomi collusion
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm used to playing mainly SNGs onlin and am relatively inexperienced in B&M cardrooms. Anyway, this happened to me the other day at Potowatomi in Milwaukee. I'd like to know what the proper way to handle this would have been:

I'm playing 2/4 and 3 of the other players were college students who obviously knew each other. Over the course of a few hours at the table, the following took place:

1) The 'leader' of the college group "jokingly" said to the other two guys to 'give him a signal' if they have a good hand. Dealer says nothing.

2) I'm in a hand with 2 of the guys. I bet the river. The first to act after me looks at the other guy and says, "Are you going to call?" I object, they both fold. I call the floor over, nothing is done other than the floor reminding these guys that there is only one player per hand allowed.

3) It's a kill pot. Before the cards are dealt, the leader of their group whispers to the guy on his right (one of his friends) to 'bump it up'. Leader, who is UTG, raises, his friend to his right re-raises.

At this point, I had had enough and had the floor called over again. They did not seem to think that this was a big deal. Instead of throwing these guys out, the floor told me that I was making a 'very serious accusation' (collusion) and that I should watch what I accuse people of. This is even though the dealer and another player both heard this guy tell his friend to raise pre-flop before the cards were dealt.

At this point, I got up and left the casino. Would this type of thing ever fly in Vegas or was it too much for me to expect the floor to at the very least break this group of guys up?

BTW, I also noticed that any time one of them would bet post flop, the guy to his left would always raise. Once a person who was not in their group would drop out of the hand, the action would slow, there would be a bet and a fold w/o a hand being shown down the vast majority of the time. This was all pointed out to the staff of the poker room, in addition to the comments that they were making to each other, but fell on deaf ears.

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This doesn't surprise me at all. I live in the Madison area and used to play at Potowatomi every month or two. However, the last few times I've been there, I've had VERY bad experiences with floor and dealers. Frankly, the floor (middle-aged guy with blonde mustache) has been very rude both times I've called him over for questions. And the dealers are just not very-well trained.

I suggest taking your game to Oneida (dealers and floor are much better) in Green Bay, or making a trip every now and again to Canterbury in the Twin Cities (fantastic room).

Potowatomi just isn't very well-run at all, and it's not worth your time to go there again.

Re: Potowatomi collusion
 

That the floor person knew the player you were accusing and then blew off your complaint is worrying. But now that you mention it, this is a bit much at 2/4, collusion is always wrong, but theses gus clearly weren't very good at it, tehy basically told you thta thtye would both be raising with almost any 2 cards in the kill pot, giving you plenty of info to beat them with. I'd say if the stakes were 4/8, maybe 5/10, this would be very veyr serious, 2/4 maaaaybe i let it slide.

Re: Potowatomi collusion
 

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I'm used to playing mainly SNGs onlin and am relatively inexperienced in B&M cardrooms. Anyway, this happened to me the other day at Potowatomi in Milwaukee. I'd like to know what the proper way to handle this would have been:

I'm playing 2/4 and 3 of the other players were college students who obviously knew each other. Over the course of a few hours at the table, the following took place:

1) The 'leader' of the college group "jokingly" said to the other two guys to 'give him a signal' if they have a good hand. Dealer says nothing.

2) I'm in a hand with 2 of the guys. I bet the river. The first to act after me looks at the other guy and says, "Are you going to call?" I object, they both fold. I call the floor over, nothing is done other than the floor reminding these guys that there is only one player per hand allowed.

3) It's a kill pot. Before the cards are dealt, the leader of their group whispers to the guy on his right (one of his friends) to 'bump it up'. Leader, who is UTG, raises, his friend to his right re-raises.

At this point, I had had enough and had the floor called over again. They did not seem to think that this was a big deal. Instead of throwing these guys out, the floor told me that I was making a 'very serious accusation' (collusion) and that I should watch what I accuse people of. This is even though the dealer and another player both heard this guy tell his friend to raise pre-flop before the cards were dealt.

At this point, I got up and left the casino. Would this type of thing ever fly in Vegas or was it too much for me to expect the floor to at the very least break this group of guys up?

BTW, I also noticed that any time one of them would bet post flop, the guy to his left would always raise. Once a person who was not in their group would drop out of the hand, the action would slow, there would be a bet and a fold w/o a hand being shown down the vast majority of the time. This was all pointed out to the staff of the poker room, in addition to the comments that they were making to each other, but fell on deaf ears.

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This doesn't surprise me at all. I live in the Madison area and used to play at Potowatomi every month or two. However, the last few times I've been there, I've had VERY bad experiences with floor and dealers. Frankly, the floor (middle-aged guy with blonde mustache) has been very rude both times I've called him over for questions. And the dealers are just not very-well trained.

I suggest taking your game to Oneida (dealers and floor are much better) in Green Bay, or making a trip every now and again to Canterbury in the Twin Cities (fantastic room).

Potowatomi just isn't very well-run at all, and it's not worth your time to go there again.

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one of the floor guys at Potowatomi travels to Canterbury to play quite often. you'd think he'd have picked up a few things on how to run a room.

Re: Potowatomi collusion
 

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Im completely on your side on this whole subject...but...how could telling the guy to raise before anyone sees his cards be colluding?

Sounds like chip spewing to me. Im sure they were tryng to intimidate everyone and definately were out of line, but I just dont see how they get any advantage from raising blind.

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Here's how it's collusion:

Because it's a kill pot ... one guy straddles, his buddy raises, no one else plays unless they have premium hands, the two guys check it down once everyelse is out of the hand, one guy makes the river bet, his buddy folds, and they split up all the money on the car ride home while they're laughing at their 'easy money' when they pull through the friggin' Wendy's drive-thru.

I would've flew off. But then again, I won't play there anymore because of exact situations like these.

Re: Potowatomi collusion
 

haha if i saw this i would keep it to myself and win all their money. Its definitly to your advantage. What are you complaining about?

Re: Potowatomi collusion
 

I think this is kind of a general problem with Indian gaming casinos. They don't have the same regulatory oversight that Vegas has. I was at a game where people were regularly making string bets and talking about their hole cards. It was bugging the crap out of me.

Re: Potowatomi collusion
 

As far as the rules go, how is the "bump it up" comment before the cards were dealt any different than a group showing up at a table with the intention of magoo-ing it up and 5-betting everything in sight?

Serious question. I agree that the way the floor handled this situation was pretty bad.

Re: Potowatomi collusion
 

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haha if i saw this i would keep it to myself and win all their money. Its definitly to your advantage. What are you complaining about?

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How so?

Re: Potowatomi collusion
 

Fire a letter off to the casino manager. Heck, maybe the floor is in on it. If you're not gonna go back, take the whole place down.

No, I don't think the floor is in on it, but by your assertation that he knows one of the colluders, that's obviously influenced his decision.

Re: Potowatomi collusion
 

Only possibly because you know the guy is going to raise with any hand that he has. So if you have anything that's playable re-raise him.

If these guys are in every single hand it's even better. You just treat them like any other maniac, unfortuanlly your odds are down though because there are more than one of them so your varience will no doubt go thru the roof.

(which may be a good reason to complain anyway)

Re: Potowatomi collusion
 

It's 2/4, what are they going to buy at Wendy's a frosty???

Ive seen better at Potty that was close to collusion, but came to this conclusion anyway. It's not like these guys have this grandmaster plan to get rich and steal people's money, it's just the case of a couple buddys who are unfortuanlly sitting right next to each other who are screwing around and taking advantage of the situation.

But still, you know they are doing it so it's not that hard to take advantage of the situation yourself. Just change seats to get on their left as soon as you can, and try to isolate them and watch your varience go thru the roof.

Re: Potowatomi collusion
 

[ QUOTE ]
3) It's a kill pot. Before the cards are dealt, the leader of their group whispers to the guy on his right (one of his friends) to 'bump it up'. Leader, who is UTG, raises, his friend to his right re-raises.


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His friend is in the big blind, right? Were there callers in between? It's not collusion to agree to raise or 3-bet without looking at your cards. The other two examples you gave, if they're not "jokes", are examples of team play or collusion.

Re: Potowatomi collusion
 

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3) It's a kill pot. Before the cards are dealt, the leader of their group whispers to the guy on his right (one of his friends) to 'bump it up'. Leader, who is UTG, raises, his friend to his right re-raises.


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His friend is in the big blind, right? Were there callers in between? It's not collusion to agree to raise or 3-bet without looking at your cards. The other two examples you gave, if they're not "jokes", are examples of team play or collusion.

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Sorry, I tried fixing my OP, but it was too late. The guy who said to bump it up was UTG, his friend was directly to his LEFT. The kill was on the button.

As I said, this was the final incident of the night. First, there was the comment about giving him a signal if one of his friends had a good hand. Then, they were asking each other if they were going to call my river bet. Finally, the obvious betting and raising to get other players out of pots, followed by a single river bet and a muck. They were obviously trying to buy the kill pot for the team. And if someone had a playable hand, they would team up against them.

Look, just because I know the way to combat this stuff does not make it right. And it certainly doesn't mean that the floor should let them get away with it. FWIW, I left the casino up $ for my session, but that's not the point. Poker is not supposed to be a team sport.

Re: Potowatomi collusion
 

The problem is NON PROFESSIONAL MIDWEST POKER ROOMS. Those rooms in NW Indiana, and Aurora are horrible. Card rooms which accomodate THOUSANDS of players EVERY month, are run much better. Those eight, twelve, or seventeen table rooms are the PITS.
[img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]


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Anyway, this happened to me the other day at Potowatomi in Milwaukee.

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Re: Potowatomi collusion
 

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and that the guy who said to raise it up used as an excuse the fact that he did it before the cards were dealt. He didn't even deny telling his friend to raise pre-flop!

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This is really the only thing that stood out in the OP that wouldn't have bothered me. If anything, it could be to your advantage to know they are going to bump it preflop before looking at their cards. They are providing you with the same information as their bud at this point.

Now if they looked at their cards, then said it, that's a whole 'nother situation and they should be booted.

b

Re: Potowatomi collusion
 

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I am not sure how bad the Bump it up comment is. I have been at tables where people get crazy and just cap PF blind. Its not like there is an advantage there for them. The advantage in that scenario is actually yours, since you dont have any money in the pot yet, and can only enter is with premiums. The always raising people out, and then signal comments are collustion. But the blind raising is usually just for fun.

C-Dog

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Say nobody had heard their comment and also that the other players at the table were relatively weak. So, there's $7 in the pot pre-flop. UTG raises and his buddy re-raises. If nobody has a strong hand, they take the kill and both blinds w/o any problem. Then of course, if somebody does call, they're playing the hand 2 against 1. How is that not an advantage???

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You're combining two different things here. The key is that everyone can hear their plan and no one has any information on the cards yet. Once the cards are out and added info is known, THEN it's worth bitching about if they're still yapping.

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and also that the other players at the table were relatively weak

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Irrelevant.

Simply raising blind preflop isn't colluding.

You can't force someone to look at their hand before raising. Adjust accordingly.

Btw...Preflop capped straddles are great when you have a nice hand to come in with behind them.

b

Re: Potowatomi collusion
 

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As far as the rules go, how is the "bump it up" comment before the cards were dealt any different than a group showing up at a table with the intention of magoo-ing it up and 5-betting everything in sight?


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It isn't. I remember a game with GoT, Dude and Slavic where Dude provoked GoT to straddle Dude's big blind. Then he got 3 bet, I think Dude capped blind. GoT had a real disheartened look on his face as he checked his cards when the action got back to him but called lest he would be deemed a pussy by Dude especially since Dude capped it blind(iirc). It was pretty funny.

b

Re: Potowatomi collusion
 

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I think this is kind of a general problem with Indian gaming casinos.

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I think you mean generally smaller casinos/cardrooms with about 4 tables max. Not just Indian Casinos.

b

Re: Potowatomi collusion
 

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3) It's a kill pot. Before the cards are dealt, the leader of their group whispers to the guy on his right (one of his friends) to 'bump it up'. Leader, who is UTG, raises, his friend to his right re-raises.


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His friend is in the big blind, right? Were there callers in between? It's not collusion to agree to raise or 3-bet without looking at your cards. The other two examples you gave, if they're not "jokes", are examples of team play or collusion.

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Sorry, I tried fixing my OP, but it was too late. The guy who said to bump it up was UTG, his friend was directly to his LEFT. The kill was on the button.

.

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It's still ok to multiple blind straddle even in a kill pot.

b

Re: Potowatomi collusion
 

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3) It's a kill pot. Before the cards are dealt, the leader of their group whispers to the guy on his right (one of his friends) to 'bump it up'. Leader, who is UTG, raises, his friend to his right re-raises.


[/ QUOTE ]
His friend is in the big blind, right? Were there callers in between? It's not collusion to agree to raise or 3-bet without looking at your cards. The other two examples you gave, if they're not "jokes", are examples of team play or collusion.

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Sorry, I tried fixing my OP, but it was too late. The guy who said to bump it up was UTG, his friend was directly to his LEFT. The kill was on the button.

.

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It's still ok to multiple blind straddle even in a kill pot.

b

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What they did was NOT a 'blind straddle'. In a blind straddle, everyone knows that the bet has been placed prior to the cards being dealt. Having a secret plan between two players to raise and re-raise is NOT a blind straddle, it's collusion.

I just happened to overhear the 'bump it up' comment. If they had announced to the table what they were planning on doing, that would be a different matter. But that wasn't the case - I overheard the guy whispering to his friend. So, they had a plan prior to the cards being dealt to give the illusion to the rest of the table that they had two very strong hands - which would on most occassions allow them to 'buy' the kill pot. What took place here bears absolutely no resemblance to a blind straddle.

Re: Potowatomi collusion
 

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3) It's a kill pot. Before the cards are dealt, the leader of their group whispers to the guy on his right (one of his friends) to 'bump it up'. Leader, who is UTG, raises, his friend to his right re-raises.


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His friend is in the big blind, right? Were there callers in between? It's not collusion to agree to raise or 3-bet without looking at your cards. The other two examples you gave, if they're not "jokes", are examples of team play or collusion.

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Sorry, I tried fixing my OP, but it was too late. The guy who said to bump it up was UTG, his friend was directly to his LEFT. The kill was on the button.

.

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It's still ok to multiple blind straddle even in a kill pot.

b

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What they did was NOT a 'blind straddle'. In a blind straddle, everyone knows that the bet has been placed prior to the cards being dealt. Having a secret plan between two players to raise and re-raise is NOT a blind straddle, it's collusion.

I just happened to overhear the 'bump it up' comment. If they had announced to the table what they were planning on doing, that would be a different matter. But that wasn't the case - I overheard the guy whispering to his friend. So, they had a plan prior to the cards being dealt to give the illusion to the rest of the table that they had two very strong hands - which would on most occassions allow them to 'buy' the kill pot. What took place here bears absolutely no resemblance to a blind straddle.

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Realize when confronting the floor, the much better part of your complaint is the other stuff that happened during a hand that you described. THOSE are the strong point of your argument that should stand alone w/o even bringing this preflop situation up. Simply because this situation can be seen as speculative as now you have to see if everyone else heard them and it's big mess as many might not have even paid attention if they said it out loud anyways. If they're not going to do something about the other, more blatant stuff, they sure aren't going to do something about this.

b

Re: Potowatomi collusion
 

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As far as the rules go, how is the "bump it up" comment before the cards were dealt any different than a group showing up at a table with the intention of magoo-ing it up and 5-betting everything in sight?

Serious question. I agree that the way the floor handled this situation was pretty bad.

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The difference is that your group of magoos is 5-betting everything, not just the selected hands when they decide it is to there advantage.

Re: Potowatomi collusion
 

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As far as the rules go, how is the "bump it up" comment before the cards were dealt any different than a group showing up at a table with the intention of magoo-ing it up and 5-betting everything in sight?

Serious question. I agree that the way the floor handled this situation was pretty bad.

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The difference is that your group of magoos is 5-betting everything, not just the selected hands when they decide it is to there advantage.

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Again, it's not really to their advantage if everyone at the table hears it ahead of time. I mean, what if guys just say that every kill pot they will straddle and restraddle? Big whoop.

b

Re: Potowatomi collusion
 

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As far as the rules go, how is the "bump it up" comment before the cards were dealt any different than a group showing up at a table with the intention of magoo-ing it up and 5-betting everything in sight?

Serious question. I agree that the way the floor handled this situation was pretty bad.

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The difference is that your group of magoos is 5-betting everything, not just the selected hands when they decide it is to there advantage.

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Again, it's not really to their advantage if everyone at the table hears it ahead of time. I mean, what if guys just say that every kill pot they will straddle and restraddle? Big whoop.

b

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Again, they weren't announcing it to the table that they were raising it up. I overheard them whispering. Your example is irrelevant, since that's not at all how it happened.

Re: Potowatomi collusion
 

I have read the posts and understand your concern. The floor handled it very poorly and I actually play in this casino. I played in the 10/20 or 20/40 if it went and play much higher elsewhere. Saying this, my friend and I actually got accused of colluding. It was the farthest from the truth and actually play very tough on each other, I think b/c we were good friends and not regulars they instantly though we cheated. I really think your concern is not much of one in that typical 2/4 game. I have asked people if they are going to call if they are behind and I would have just punished them for raising w/ their weak hands.

Re: Potowatomi collusion
 

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As far as the rules go, how is the "bump it up" comment before the cards were dealt any different than a group showing up at a table with the intention of magoo-ing it up and 5-betting everything in sight?

Serious question. I agree that the way the floor handled this situation was pretty bad.

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The difference is that your group of magoos is 5-betting everything, not just the selected hands when they decide it is to there advantage.

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Again, it's not really to their advantage if everyone at the table hears it ahead of time. I mean, what if guys just say that every kill pot they will straddle and restraddle? Big whoop.

b

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If you are not in one of those places where you can straddle from any position that would be correct, but if you are in a place where you can only straddle from UTG you can't do this.

Re: Potowatomi collusion
 

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As far as the rules go, how is the "bump it up" comment before the cards were dealt any different than a group showing up at a table with the intention of magoo-ing it up and 5-betting everything in sight?

Serious question. I agree that the way the floor handled this situation was pretty bad.

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The difference is that your group of magoos is 5-betting everything, not just the selected hands when they decide it is to there advantage.

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Again, it's not really to their advantage if everyone at the table hears it ahead of time. I mean, what if guys just say that every kill pot they will straddle and restraddle? Big whoop.

b

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If you are not in one of those places where you can straddle from any position that would be correct, but if you are in a place where you can only straddle from UTG you can't do this.

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Sure you can. Minor semantics. You can announce to the table that you are going to raise no matter what when the action gets to you prior to the cards being dealt. You just have to wait for your turn to act.

This was an issue I had to explain to a dealer coming off the 2+2 table last year over the holidays when they took over a 3-6 table.

b

Re: Potowatomi collusion
 

I have a feeling that if you happened to be the poor bastard who sat at a 2p2 table you might confusion jokes + pointless aggro for a lot of things that are worse than you thought. I feel like this story may be missing a lot of important context that the OP may simply not have.