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-   -   Curtains Hand #3 (Degen) (http://archives2.twoplustwo.com/showthread.php?t=395442)

Degen 12-10-2005 06:18 AM

Curtains Hand #3 (Degen)
 
Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t100 (5 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

SB (t5660)
Hero (t855)
UTG (t1200)
MP (t905)
Button (t1380)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop: (t200) J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks.

Turn: (t200) 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
SB checks, Hero checks.

River: (t200) 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">SB bets t125</font>, Hero calls t125.

Final Pot: t450

12-10-2005 07:18 AM

Re: Curtains Hand #3 (Degen)
 
This one sure isn't in my playbook. Hero is either a genius, a nut, or misclicked.

bennies 12-10-2005 07:24 AM

Re: Curtains Hand #3 (Degen)
 
[ QUOTE ]
This one sure isn't in my playbook. Hero is either a genius, a nut, or misclicked.

[/ QUOTE ]

none of the above. He's just from the wild west.... , a sucker for showdowns [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

Custer 12-10-2005 07:36 AM

Re: Curtains Hand #3 (Degen)
 
Seems like a reasonable call to me. I think it would be a poor fold. Villain, certainly does not have A high. He either has Curtains crushed, or has nothing at all. This is a hand (Curtains hand) that undoubtably will/should often be bet, but its so hard to pull the trigger on a bet that might eliminate you from the hand when you have a straight/flush draw, and for good reason. There are 2 reasons that this bet has a high probability of being a bluff:

1) Villain has lots of chips, Hero has very few. Most players bluff far more often (as they should) when they have lots of chips.

moses

Sciolist 12-10-2005 08:30 AM

Re: Curtains Hand #3 (Degen)
 
I pretty much always pass or raise these hands - I figure he has 33 or something. I know it's not important in terms of the decision, but what was the result?

Degen 12-10-2005 08:32 AM

Re: Curtains Hand #3 (Degen)
 
[ QUOTE ]
but what was the result?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll let curtains and some of the other big dogs tear into this tomorrow, then I'll post that.

skipperbob 12-10-2005 10:03 AM

Re: Curtains Hand #3 (Degen)
 
Curtains Play Baat

Melchiades 12-10-2005 10:13 AM

Re: Curtains Hand #3 (Degen)
 
I won't be making this one a habit anytime soon. Why can't SB have a 7 or an 8?

I can see the logic though. He probably doesn't have A high or a pocketpair since he would raise preflop a lot of the time with those hands.

If he has a K or a J one would expect him to bet the flop.

Then again he could have missed a flop check/raise and gotten scared with the 8 falling on the turn.

I don't think I like it though.

bigt439 12-10-2005 02:03 PM

Re: Curtains Hand #3 (Degen)
 
IMO he can be betting A high, a rivered pair, unlikely straight, or some other slowly played pair too often to make this a call. I don't think it's a terrible call, but I don't think it's +EV. I guess that's all that can be said about this hand; everyone just has to chime in with their opinion.

Melchiades 12-10-2005 02:12 PM

Re: Curtains Hand #3 (Degen)
 
Would have been interesting to see the reception this post have gotten if it wasn't curtains who played the hand.

Or if you switched hero and villain and asked people what they thought of villains call with Q high.

bigt439 12-10-2005 02:14 PM

Re: Curtains Hand #3 (Degen)
 
[ QUOTE ]
Would have been interesting to see the reception this post have gotten if it wasn't curtains who played the hand.

Or if you switched hero and villain and asked people what they thought of villains call with Q high.

[/ QUOTE ]

That shouldn't really affect the replies. A lot of players here are good enough to look at hands without bias from factors like that.

Jason Strasser 12-10-2005 02:22 PM

Re: Curtains Hand #3 (Degen)
 
Well 2 things to consider.

1) What will curtains value bet range be here. I'd think any jack or better is a reasonable range.

2) How often will he bluff with a better hand? Ace high, underpair to the board, maybe bluff with a 7.

Don't play with curtains so have no idea.

-Jason

Melchiades 12-10-2005 02:27 PM

Re: Curtains Hand #3 (Degen)
 
I agree it shouldn't. I'm not sure it wouldn't though. If people don't like the play here, they will probably say so, but add that it can be ok/that it might be good with reads/that they don't hate it/etc

If some random guy posted it the replies would be much harsher, if people think it's a bad play. Not that it's a big problem or anything, or even wrong at all. Just find it interesting. We take the information we have and form an opinion. Here knowing curtains played the hand is part of that information.

Continue the poker discussion though. Didn't mean to hijack the thread. Really looking forward to hearing the reasoning for this play. Interesting hand. I've never made a call like this, ever.

microbet 12-10-2005 02:30 PM

Re: Curtains Hand #3 (Degen)
 
Is this the same super LAG villian as in the other hand? If he's a donk and is normally very aggressive, I really wouldn't call the river.

I might push preflop depending on how likely I thought a call was.

If you really wanted to justify a call on the river you could probably think he would raise preflop with an ace and probably a king. JK or 8 would probably bet the flop. Only hands that beat your are 8 that checks the flop and slowplays the turn or a 7 AND 125 chips don't mean anything to him.

I still don't like calling on the river.

fluorescenthippo 12-10-2005 02:38 PM

Re: Curtains Hand #3 (Degen)
 
what about pushing preflop? if SB had a smaller stack..

Paul Thomson 12-10-2005 02:40 PM

Re: Curtains Hand #3 (Degen)
 
I think it's a good call. If he wins it half the time, then it's plus $EV. The most compelling reason to call is his stack size. If he folds (7BB) or loses (6BB), he'll be in the exact same situation--Push mode. If he calls ands win he'll have 10BB and be able to play a little poker, not much but some.

curtains 12-10-2005 04:26 PM

Re: Curtains Hand #3 (Degen)
 
[ QUOTE ]
Well 2 things to consider.

1) What will curtains value bet range be here. I'd think any jack or better is a reasonable range.

2) How often will he bluff with a better hand? Ace high, underpair to the board, maybe bluff with a 7.

Don't play with curtains so have no idea.

-Jason

[/ QUOTE ]

curtains is the one who called.

microbet 12-10-2005 04:31 PM

Re: Curtains Hand #3 (Degen)
 
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Well 2 things to consider.

1) What will curtains value bet range be here. I'd think any jack or better is a reasonable range.

2) How often will he bluff with a better hand? Ace high, underpair to the board, maybe bluff with a 7.

Don't play with curtains so have no idea.

-Jason

[/ QUOTE ]

curtains is the one who called.

[/ QUOTE ]

I thought he was just trying to say to look at it from the other guys point of view.

curtains 12-10-2005 04:34 PM

Re: Curtains Hand #3 (Degen)
 

In any case, I barely even thought about this one...the way the guy was playing a big hand didn't make a lot of sense to me, nor did a mediocre hand that beats Q high, but that the huge stack randomly decided to check both the flop and turn. I didn't think he would limp preflop with Ace high or that he would now bet a seven, so I actually felt the chances were quite good that I was ahead. Sometimes I get carried away with my Q high and J high calls (Ive made some bad ones), but I'm right more than I'm wrong.

I sent a ridiculous terrible hand to bluefeet where I called with jack high on the river, which was by far the worst hand of the day, but that hand is much different than this one. Thank goodness he didn't post it, its unbelievably hopelessly bad.

Another good thing about knowing someone will see all my hands, is it encourages me to not do mindless stuff like that [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] Well it didn't work this time, but maybe in the future...

curtains 12-10-2005 04:35 PM

Re: Curtains Hand #3 (Degen)
 

Also I think my opponent in this hand had 4 or 3 high or something like that.

PrayingMantis 12-10-2005 05:18 PM

Re: Curtains Hand #3 (Degen)
 
People are talking about this one as if it is some insanely bad call or something. Well, it is marginal in some senses, but definitely not terrible or anything, certainly not without any context.

It's a hand between blinds. One should have a lot of feel for maximizing EV in such spots. It's not like "Q high? fold the river". Many villains would play this exact board in such a way that calling Q-high here is +EV. I'm not saying it's an auto-call necessarily, but it's not terrible either, IMO, especially with some read.

curtains 12-10-2005 05:55 PM

Re: Curtains Hand #3 (Degen)
 
hmm I didnt catch the drift that people thought it was an insane call.

Degen 12-11-2005 03:22 AM

Re: Curtains Hand #3 (Degen)
 
[ QUOTE ]

Also I think my opponent in this hand had 4 or 3 high or something like that.

[/ QUOTE ]

he did indeed have the nut low 32s


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