Fairly Common Situation
 

10-20 live game.
A fair bit of limping going on.

I have QJo.

Preflop:
2 early limpers, I limp in middle position, theres a couple limpers after me, and both the blinds are with us.

Flop:
Q [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

It's checked to me, I bet, the guy acting right after me raises, its folded around to me, I call.

My question now is: This player is way too loose preflop. But thats not the big issue. He still knows somewhat how to play poker, ie, he can raise for a freecard with draws, he can knock people out of pots, etc etc.

What should be my turn plan?

Should I donk-fold a non-spade turn? How about a spade turn? Should I risk the free card and check-call the turn.
Should I have 3bet the flop (even though live games arent as agressive as internet ones) and led the turn?


I'm a bit lost as to whats optimal here.

Re: Fairly Common Situation
 

Given that it is now HU, he is likey going to bet the turn whether he is on a draw or not. I like check calling this turn. Bet/fold is no good since he can raise a lot of hands you beat (assuming he is aggressive).

Re: Fairly Common Situation
 

If he is only moderately aggressive, ie not as agressive as a tag such as myself is, what then?

Re: Fairly Common Situation
 

If the villain is looser than you, and he's less aggressive, wouldn't a more aggressive line be better? It makes it easy to fold to resistance if he's somewhat passive. My standard line is to bet/3-bet the flop. If he's passive and I get raised on the turn again, I think it's a fold.

Another question, do you have the J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]? That makes a lot of difference.

Re: Fairly Common Situation
 

I like a check/call here because it's somewhat unlikely he's got a lone spade that was raising for a free card considering he shut out the whole field.

Re: Fairly Common Situation
 

Quite often I like to call his raise on the flop, and bet into him on the turn with these types of hand that are pretty strong but not super strong. I'm also assuming you have no spade. I'm more incline to give it up with a spade coming on the turn.

Re: Fairly Common Situation
 

I don't like 3betting the flop as there are many hands which have a spade and would be correct to cap with 14 outs. I prefer the occasional donk-bet line. However, very few opponents these days actually TAKE a free card. They raise for the free card like they are supposed to and then the "semi-bluff" the turn thinking they are playing advanced poker. It is best to know who they rare players who actually take free cards are, and donkbet them appropriately. In answer to your question, all three lines can be optimal dpending on your opponent. Another way of saying that, is that it doens't much matter what you do, all three lines are similar in EV, though some have more variance than others.

Re: Fairly Common Situation
 

From the other side of things...

I usually take the freecard. Am I wrong to do so? Maybe yes depending on whether my opponent fudges his pot odds and/or bets out middle or bottom pair?

Re: Fairly Common Situation
 

Bet the turn and fold to a raise. He would likely be raising expecting to be called as you've now been aggressive opening both streets. You're representing top pair and aren't really showing any signs of folding. So his hand would likely be in a 'stronger', made hand range if he raises again. He could just have an A high flush draw with his flop raise.

If you're really not sure if he raises you on the turn, call him down. Don't give a free card on the turn.

b

Re: Fairly Common Situation
 

I think check call is a fairly substantial mistake.

First, if I'm going to play preflop I usually raise here to try to get the button.

Second, given the board and your read I think this is a pretty clear flop 3-bet and turn lead. You're almost certainly ahead and don't want to be giving any free cards. Plus, if he raises the turn I think you can fold pretty safely.

Re: Fairly Common Situation
 

Fold preflop.

Lost Wages

Re: Fairly Common Situation
 

if I had a pt at some of these 10-20 b&M tables like this one, the average vp of the table would be 40. QJo is definitely good enough to play.

Re: Fairly Common Situation
 

On the button maybe, not in MP.

Lost Wages

Re: Fairly Common Situation
 

[ QUOTE ]
On the button maybe, not in MP.

Lost Wages

[/ QUOTE ]

I see no value in raising here on the button when we already have it. CO, sure.

Re: Fairly Common Situation
 

I find this decision to be very player dependent. Has he raised his drawing hand before? Would he have raised or called on the flop with a made flush? How good is his game? Does he know that he is effectively isolating you and would he do that with a drawing hand?

In many live games against a loose player who can be aggressive post-flop, a C/C, C/C is a good enough line and you will win often enough with TPMK. If a spade falls, you need to decide whether you can represent the big spade and get him to fold... again, very player and read dependent.

Re: Fairly Common Situation
 

I'm not raising it OTB, I'm limping it. I'm folding it in MP.

Lost Wages

Re: Fairly Common Situation
 

[ QUOTE ]
On the button maybe, not in MP

[/ QUOTE ]
I agree fold this trash preflop
What are you ahead of here? Your a dog to A/K(one spade)
you about even money with any A-x (X being a spade). Any Pair (holding a spade) etc etc.

You get to make top pair with a bad kicker..wow...

Re: Fairly Common Situation
 

PF in a limped pot, I believe this hand has low, but positive EV. Live, I definately play it for the advantages that come with playing live and becuase ITS LIVE AND PLAYING LIVE IS LIKE WATCHING THE GRASS GROW WHEN YOU PLAY TAG!!!!

Re: Fairly Common Situation
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think check call is a fairly substantial mistake.

First, if I'm going to play preflop I usually raise here to try to get the button.

Second, given the board and your read I think this is a pretty clear flop 3-bet and turn lead. You're almost certainly ahead and don't want to be giving any free cards. Plus, if he raises the turn I think you can fold pretty safely.

[/ QUOTE ]

this is what i was gonna say.