Jerk of the Day
 

Two players remaining in the pot. Board is 8-8-8-K-T. First player checks. Second player bets. First player check-raises. Second player calls.

First player shows A-8, quads. Second player shakes his head and mucks. First player tells the dealer, "I want to see his hand."

I'm normally a mild-mannered milquetoast, but had I been the second player, he would only have been able to see my cards if he could look up his own ass.

Re: Jerk of the Day
 

Hi Andy,

Maybe you and the jerk could settle things here.

Re: Jerk of the Day
 

if i was the second player id pop the cards in my mouth and chew on them, then show him

Re: Jerk of the Day
 

Why didn't you say something to the schmuck?

Re: Jerk of the Day
 

That's awful. Did the dealer expose his hand? What limit/casino did this happen at?

Re: Jerk of the Day
 

Response to this is to ask to see jerk's hand every time he makes it to the river, regardless of whether or not you are in the hand. Do not miss one single time.

Re: Jerk of the Day
 

[ QUOTE ]
Two players remaining in the pot. Board is 8-8-8-K-T. First player checks. Second player bets. First player check-raises. Second player calls.

First player shows A-8, quads. Second player shakes his head and mucks. First player tells the dealer, "I want to see his hand."

I'm normally a mild-mannered milquetoast, but had I been the second player, he would only have been able to see my cards if he could look up his own ass.

[/ QUOTE ]
heres the short version of the above:
winner asks to see losers hand at showdown. yawn.

Re: Jerk of the Day
 

"heres the short version of the above:
winner asks to see losers hand at showdown. yawn. "

Come on, The guy is out of line. For some reason I get a really uncomfortable feeling any time a winning player asks to see a losing player's hand. This instance is particularly uncalled for.

Re: Jerk of the Day
 

He was probably curious to see what kind of boat loser had. I don't think you or loser should take it personally.

Re: Jerk of the Day
 

In a stud game I once witnessed a similar occurrence in a gigantic pot. The winner made a straight flush; the loser called the river raise, was shown the winning hand, and tried to muck his cards; the winner then very loudly declaimed in an affronted, accusatory tone, "I want to see that hand!"

Takes all kinds, Andy, you know...;-)

Re: Jerk of the Day
 

First player should have bet/3-bet him, but I agree that it is a Jerk move. It is totally uncalled for.

Re: Jerk of the Day
 

There are jerks in every phase of life. If you are going to negatively react every time you see a jerk move, you will be one aggravated person. However there is a solution, people should try to get the card rooms to change the rule on the showing of losing hands. The players have the power if they are willing to use it.

Re: Jerk of the Day
 

I agree with you on changing the rules. It's supposed to be to prevent collusion. In this case, there were only two players involved pre-flop. There had been no "history" between the two involved (at least on that day). Player 1 is often a jerk.

I never get upset with how any one plays their cards or what they say to me. In this case, player 2 was running badly, he's a gentleman all the time, and what player 1 did was just plain rude.

Re: Jerk of the Day
 

Loser tried to muck (he was in seat 9). The cards were on the muck, dealer took them out and showed them. Loser complained to the dealer, who responded, correctly, that the requeset to see his cards came before he mucked.

40-80. Commerce.

Re: Jerk of the Day
 

Others immediately did.

Re: Jerk of the Day
 

I know there is the "expose the hand to prevent collusion" rule, but I've never seen anyone invoke it. Abuse of the rule like this is simply unconscionable.

[ QUOTE ]
40-80. Commerce.

[/ QUOTE ]

Would other rooms expose the loser's hand in this situation (i.e. where no collusion could have taken place)? Absent other factors (the game being ridiculously good) I would avoid playing there if this is how they run their room. This jerk is taking advantage of the rules and the dealer is letting him.

Re: Jerk of the Day
 

[ QUOTE ]
He was probably curious to see what kind of boat loser had. I don't think you or loser should take it personally.

[/ QUOTE ]

He is abusing the rules to gain information. I think he's an [censored] and I would be insulted if I was at the table. Do you think it would be fair for him to see everyone's cards when they fold the turn? or flop? or pre-flop? Exposing cards ruins the game.

Re: Jerk of the Day
 

Hi Andy,

bdk3clash is playing at Commerce for the next couple of days. I suspect the jerk-quotient is now at an all time high there.

Best Wishes
The DaveR

Re: Jerk of the Day
 

Other rooms in So. Calif. would indeed expose the hand. While collusion is indeed the reason for the rule, it doesn't specify as such in the rulebook. All the book says is that if there's a call on the river, any player in the game can ask to see any and all hands. The dealer has no choice but to honor the request.

Re: Jerk of the Day
 

Andy,

As Tommy Angelo wrote years ago and as many of us have said since then, the "I want to see that hand" rule is arguably the stupidest thing still alive in casinos.

I can't remember the last time I called the floor but I had to just last week when a guy did that to not one, not two, but three different people heads-up -- he was one of the better players at the table and yet felt some need to mock those that called him down with inferior holdings.

Absolutely moronic, especially when there is zero element of potential collusion involved (the theoretical thing this insane rule is meant to stop, but doesn't).

Barron Vangor Toth
BarronVangorToth.com

Re: Jerk of the Day
 

I'm reminded of a similar experience I had once. I got beaten by some obnoxious lady, who happened to have large silicone orbs positioned properly on her torso. She immediately goes off about how she wants to see my hand. She was sitting in the 1 seat and I was in the 5. I slid my cards into the muck and she went ballistic, screaming "I want to see your hand! I want to see your hand! I want to see your hand!"

I calmly looked at her and deadpanned "Well I want to see your t!ts, but that doesn't mean that I'm going to ask you."

That was the end of that argument. True story.

Re: Jerk of the Day
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm reminded of a similar experience I had once. I got beaten by some obnoxious lady, who happened to have large silicone orbs positioned properly on her torso. She immediately goes off about how she wants to see my hand. She was sitting in the 1 seat and I was in the 5. I slid my cards into the muck and she went ballistic, screaming "I want to see your hand! I want to see your hand! I want to see your hand!"

I calmly looked at her and deadpanned "Well I want to feel your t!ts, but that doesn't mean that I'm going to ask you."



[/ QUOTE ]

FYP

Re: Jerk of the Day
 

Yippee! Another chance to mention the wiki topic: http://poker.wikicities.com/wiki/I_w..._see_that_hand

Re: Jerk of the Day
 

A SIMPLE way to prevent abuse of this rule would be to mandate that the floor be called for any request to see mucked cards. The floor would have to approve it based on the requestor's explanation of why he feels the hand was suspisciouly played and/or cheating might be occurring. Anyone who makes unnecessary requests repeatedly would be given a time out or be tossed. I think Bellagio has this rule for their high limit games (or at least did at one point).

Jeff

Re: Jerk of the Day
 

The other night, I told a guy he was an effing douchebag at a really high volume when he pulled an almost identical move, except it was NL, and it completely busted the loser - like, to the point that he had to go home because he didn't have any more money (maybe to his name). It was the first time I'd ever cursed at someone at the table, but I have no regrets.

Re: Jerk of the Day
 

Need a break Andy? [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

I think it's more that you have a history with the guy being a jerk overall(revealed a little later in this thread) than him just invoking this rule.

I still don't see the big deal why people get bent out of shape over this. Especially when many of these same players/posters who get bent over it play online where anyone can see the hand histories of showndown hands.

b

Re: Jerk of the Day
 

[ QUOTE ]
Especially when many of these same players/posters who get bent over it play online where anyone can see the hand histories of showndown hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've always disliked this aspect of online play, but grudgingly accept it since the risk of collusion is so much greater.

Re: Jerk of the Day
 

I'm surprised everybody is getting so enraged over this. From the original post it sounded like this was the only time this guy did this. He's invoking a completely legal rule. What's the big deal?

Re: Jerk of the Day
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm surprised everybody is getting so enraged over this. From the original post it sounded like this was the only time this guy did this. He's invoking a completely legal rule. What's the big deal?

[/ QUOTE ]

The rule is there to prevent collusion. 99 times out of 100, this rule is not used for collusion. It's used for information.

As was the case in this hand.

Also, it's very rude to ask to see the other person's hand HU when you have the nuts.

Re: Jerk of the Day
 

[ QUOTE ]
The rule is there to prevent collusion. 99 times out of 100, this rule is not used for collusion. It's used for information.

As was the case in this hand.

Also, it's very rude to ask to see the other person's hand HU when you have the nuts.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed, but I'll usually give somebody a pass once. If they do it again, I'm all for kicking them in the nuts or making their life miserable in some other way.

Re: Jerk of the Day
 

[ QUOTE ]
The rule is there to prevent collusion. 99 times out of 100, this rule is not used for collusion. It's used for information.

[/ QUOTE ]

So what?

It's also used for information that the asker most likely isn't going to use, or know how to use to make much of a difference. Most of the time it's asked just out of curiousity. Usually by a player who folded on a prior street who is seeing if his hand was better. Also consider that many people coming into the game now are used to seeing hands at showdown with TV. So they're also more likely to be asking in terms of being a spectator than to try and make strategy adjustments against you. Which I think was also true before TV made it popular.

People get way too uptight about it.

b

Re: Jerk of the Day
 

How does that Wiki article not link to Tommy's essay.

Everybody saying the rule is legal needs to read about and understand why the rules exists.

Re: Jerk of the Day
 

[ QUOTE ]
"heres the short version of the above:
winner asks to see losers hand at showdown. yawn. "

Come on, The guy is out of line. For some reason I get a really uncomfortable feeling any time a winning player asks to see a losing player's hand. This instance is particularly uncalled for.

[/ QUOTE ]
i didnt say anybody wasnt out of line.

Re: Jerk of the Day
 

Bravo.

Re: Jerk of the Day
 

[ QUOTE ]
Everybody saying the rule is legal needs to read about and understand why the rules exists.

[/ QUOTE ]
Read about this where? Nobody really knows the origins or this rule. I would assume that it was invented just out of a philosophical notion that a "showdown" involves showing down all the hands, so you are entitled to see them all if you really want to. There are a lot of other popular theories, but I've never see any solid evidence for any of them being the true origin. The "collusion detection" mentioned in the thread is particularly silly since this rule doesn't even make sense to be used that way since if you are colluding to build the pot, you would just always have the guy without the real hand fold for the last bet and the rule then doesn't let you see his hand.

Re: Jerk of the Day
 

In case I didn't make it clear, wasn't me involved in the hand. Yes, I see the guy as a jerk in general, because he's done jerky things before. But I don't think that's coloring my perception of the incident. It's just the wrong thing to do. It's rubbing salt in the wound. Against an opponent who's nothing anything other than gentlemanly.

We're all human beings first, poker players second, no?

Re: Jerk of the Day
 

There's no question the asker in this case wasn't looking for information. It was obvious to everyone and his cousin what the other guy had anyway.

I always show when somebody asks. I'm not upset that he asked to see another person's cards. I'm always upset when a person is an unprovoked jerk towards a person who has treated him with respect.

Re: Jerk of the Day
 

I don't remember the hand I had exactly but I was playing at the local casino several years ago and ended up with quads on the river. It was heads up, I showed, my opponent mucks and a player not involved in that hand asks to see the hand that was mucked. A quite heated barage of insults ensued from both of these guys towards each other. It definitely was not conducive to a pleasant atmosphere.

Re: Jerk of the Day
 

Great story.

Reminds me of one I had to just laugh at recently. Small stakes table, and I mucked a losing hand at showdown in seat 9, and the player in seat 1 apparently asked to see my hand.

I asked the dealer who had asked, because I was curious. And the 1 seat leaned forward so I could see him around the dealer, and informed me with a straight face that it was he who had asked, "because I want to see what you were raising with". He was so straightforward in saying that, that all I could do really was laugh.

Re: Jerk of the Day
 

[ QUOTE ]
But I don't think that's coloring my perception of the incident. It's just the wrong thing to do. It's rubbing salt in the wound.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree if the guys' intent was to rub salt in the wound. Grandstanding and such. I can see that point. It's classless. There are many poor winners out there who every pot they win is like their first. However, that's not so much about the rule as it is about the person doing it.

I've found the best defense against that type is to just act like they are normal and that it doesn't bother you. Even if you're not in the hand. Many times they feed off the reaction. It bugs them not to get a reaction and to be treated normally. (you know this, but I'll put it here for the complete thought)

Other than that, I could care less if someone asks to see a hand no matter who's hand they ask to see. For me, I go to showdown fully aware that anyone at the table might ask to see my hand. For the most part, I just don't see it as that big a deal.

b