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- - Unethical? (http://archives2.twoplustwo.com/showthread.php?t=403483)

Last night at my home game, a player announced he was all-in in the dark, and another player called. When it came time to flip the cards, the initial raiser showed K-K and admitted that he had looked at his cards before going all-in, while the caller unhappily turned over K-J. Is this unethical or is it in the same vein as bluffing?

Tell the caller that I have some land in Florida for sale.
Link

It's a jerk move, but as far as I know it's not illegal. Was the initial raiser shortstacked or just that big of a jerk?

It's just lying. "Unethical" but definitely part of the game.

Its a dick move in a home game...but legal.

Why would you not look.. thats just dumb

I don't know that there's any rule against it, but its definitely angleshooting and I'd definitely consider it to be unethical, and if I had the ability to get a player banned from that homegame forever because of it, I would.

--Zetack

Exactly. He thought he was taking advantage of the peeker, and got stung. Greed is a con artists' best friend. Helps him pull people in.

If the flop was JJJ would this post exist?

-ZEN

It's definately legal, but that kind of player often leads to the break up of a home game.

Mr. K-J was a fool to believe him, btw.

Yes. Illegal? I'm not sure if this falls under a version of "misdeclaring your hand intentionally" rule or not.

Legal and ethical. He didn't misrepresent his hand. He did what he could to get a call. The other player was dumb enough to believe him. Its poker.

Not cool in a home game among friends. I wouldn't invite that person to my homegame again.

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Legal and ethical. He didn't misrepresent his hand. He did what he could to get a call. The other player was dumb enough to believe him. Its poker.

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Its angleshooting. It doesn't fall in the category of lying about your hand. Its closer in spirit in a NL game when a player looks over and says, how much do you have, and player B replies about 40 bucks, then when Player A goes all in (with 150 in front of him) Player B reveals that he actually has two one hundred dollar chips hidden behind his low denoms and calls the all-in. Complete BS and shouldn't be allowed.

--Zetack

Why did he tell everyone he looked? If I pull something like this, I am definitely acting very surprised when *WHOA* my retarded move worked!

Its angleshooting. It doesn't fall in the category of lying about your hand. Its closer in spirit in a NL game when a player looks over and says, how much do you have, and player B replies about 40 bucks, then when Player A goes all in (with 150 in front of him) Player B reveals that he actually has two one hundred dollar chips hidden behind his low denoms and calls the all-in. Complete BS and shouldn't be allowed.

--Zetack

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True, it is angleshooting. But, I don't think your example corollates. In the original example the "blind better" lied about betting in the dark. If the caller was paying attention he could have noticed this.

In your example, player B lied about what player A could not be aware of because the chips were "hidden". Player A asked about something not self evident and would not expect an untruthful answer as a part of gamemanship (and , I believe, illegal).

I agree with others that it is not illegal, but a dick move among friends.

Betty

This is certainly not the same as lying about your stack size in a NL tournament. You are required by TDA rules to keep large denomination chips visable and in the front/top of the stack, and are required to give an accurate count or let the dealer count your stack when asked.

There is nothing against any rules about lying about whether you looked at your hand. It is coffeehousing.

In an actual B&M game, I'd say this would be kind of lame, but certainly allowable. In a home game with people that are supposed to be friends, or at a minimum, acquaintances, this move was just bad sportsmanship. He wouldn't be receiving any invites to my next homegame, that's for sure.

That is so unethical, and has to payoff so much I think I'll try it.

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Its angleshooting. It doesn't fall in the category of lying about your hand. Its closer in spirit in a NL game when a player looks over and says, how much do you have, and player B replies about 40 bucks, then when Player A goes all in (with 150 in front of him) Player B reveals that he actually has two one hundred dollar chips hidden behind his low denoms and calls the all-in. Complete BS and shouldn't be allowed.

--Zetack

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True, it is angleshooting. But, I don't think your example corollates. In the original example the "blind better" lied about betting in the dark. If the caller was paying attention he could have noticed this.

In your example, player B lied about what player A could not be aware of because the chips were "hidden". Player A asked about something not self evident and would not expect an untruthful answer as a part of gamemanship (and , I believe, illegal).

I agree with others that it is not illegal, but a dick move among friends.

Betty

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So if a player could have been aware of it he has only himself to blame. I don't know about you, but I don't look at everysingle other player the entire time from deal to their turn to act.

So, a guy is marking cards...ya know if you were paying attention you would be aware of that. You certainly could be aware of it by watching the players closely and catching them doing it, or examing the cards carefully. The card marker is just implicitly lying about not having extra informatioin about the cards. Basically he's just coffeehousing ya know.

I throw that out for illustration purposes only, of course i think there's a difference between marking cards and lying about having looked at your hand. But I also think there's a difference between lying about your hand, and lying about having looked at your hand.

--Zetack

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I agree with others that it is not illegal, but a dick move among friends.

Betty

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True. And the guy was stupid for admiting that he did it.

There was a guy in the NL game at the Palms the other day who pulled the "I haven't looked at my cards yet" bit what seemed like almost every hand. I could not believe people *continuted* to fall for it after about the 10th time he magically turned over the winning hand whenever he did this.

OTOH, I have also seen someone go all-in in the dark and get a caller before even getting their cards. The guy who pushed ended up with AKs, and the caller had TT.