50/100 vs. GoG
 

He just sat down, he has 10k I have it covered. 4 handed, he raises I call in BB with red AJ. Flop is 6s 8s Js, I check he bets pot. I call. Turn is 9c, my plan? Check/raise flop, lead/call turn, lead/fold turn, c/r turn?

I would characterize GoG as TAG and he makes good decisions.

Re: 50/100 vs. GoG
 

Bet 3/4 pot and see what happens.

Re: 50/100 vs. GoG
 

What does that mean Yeti? I doubt I'll be able to pick anything up or get a feel for what GoG is doing by "seeing what happens".

Re: 50/100 vs. GoG
 

Check-fold.

Re: 50/100 vs. GoG
 

[ QUOTE ]
Check-fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you're going to check-call this flop, and check-fold a blank turn, why are you even calling preflop?

Re: 50/100 vs. GoG
 

[ QUOTE ]
What does that mean Yeti? I doubt I'll be able to pick anything up or get a feel for what GoG is doing by "seeing what happens".

[/ QUOTE ]

Why are you sat with him then?

Re: 50/100 vs. GoG
 

how would you play this against a lesser 50/100 player?

Re: 50/100 vs. GoG
 

hrm. well, since you play a fair amount with GoG, does he make this move with one spade? how about no spades? i always get nervous about putting a fair amount of money in on a three flush board without a flush out..if a fourth spade comes you have to shut down....meh. i think you need to give more info because you have more info on how GoG plays

Re: 50/100 vs. GoG
 

Seems to me you have to bet the turn. You can't let him draw out on your with 6c6s or whatever. If/when you get raised, you're going to have to make a read based on how he plays. Obviously playing one pair on this board out of position against a good player is not a great spot - but there's no avoiding it now.

Re: 50/100 vs. GoG
 

Why not bet or CR the flop?

Re: 50/100 vs. GoG
 

[ QUOTE ]
Why not bet or CR the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: 50/100 vs. GoG
 

The questions here are how much do you like your hand out of position with a good player who raised preflop and what turn cards are you going to like. You are going to like the 2 non-spade aces, 3 jacks, and very low non-spade cards. Since it is 4 handed he could have a wider range of hands, which is why you would not necessarily like another 8 or 6 on the turn in case he raised with As6o/As8o, not to mention other nearby straight cards. I would rather be done with this hand on the flop out of position and would probably go for a checkraise to achieve that. If he checks behind then at the least the pot has been kept small, and if he calls a checkraise then I am looking for a cheap showdown or to fold to a real bad card. If you get much action from him you probably won't like it.

Re: 50/100 vs. GoG
 

how much is in the pot on the turn?
you say he raised preflop but you give no indication as to how big the raise was...or for that matter if its his standard raise or his preflop raising standards...
i'm not sure how you expect people to respond intelligently when you leave out all the pertinent info.

Re: 50/100 vs. GoG
 

[ QUOTE ]
how much is in the pot on the turn?
you say he raised preflop but you give no indication as to how big the raise was...or for that matter if its his standard raise or his preflop raising standards...
i'm not sure how you expect people to respond intelligently when you leave out all the pertinent info.

[/ QUOTE ]

FYI, in UB big games, "raise" generally means "raise pot" and is the standard raise.

Re: 50/100 vs. GoG
 

[ QUOTE ]
If you're going to check-call this flop, and check-fold a blank turn, why are you even calling preflop?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because some people like to play real poker, instead of easy, cookie cutter, cheap decision poker.

Just because you play AJ preflop doesn't mean you have to go broke with a jack, nor does it mean you have to get it all in. You play AJ because it might be the best hand or it might not. The fun part is figuring out when it is and when it isn't. This cookie cutter disease is getting crazy.

Re: 50/100 vs. GoG
 

[ QUOTE ]
FYI, in UB big games, "raise" generally means "raise pot" and is the standard raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

thanks.
i hate UB for the "bet pot" feature.

Re: 50/100 vs. GoG
 

[ QUOTE ]
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What does that mean Yeti? I doubt I'll be able to pick anything up or get a feel for what GoG is doing by "seeing what happens".


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Why are you sat with him then?




[/ QUOTE ]


Agreed if you have no hopes of reading him and are resigned to that fate, maybe its not a good spot for you.

Re: 50/100 vs. GoG
 

Against a TAG, I like to lead the turn, and am usually folding to a raise.

Re: 50/100 vs. GoG
 

Why check/call on the flop?

Ask some questions I would say.

Re: 50/100 vs. GoG
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If you're going to check-call this flop, and check-fold a blank turn, why are you even calling preflop?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because some people like to play real poker, instead of easy, cookie cutter, cheap decision poker.

Just because you play AJ preflop doesn't mean you have to go broke with a jack, nor does it mean you have to get it all in. You play AJ because it might be the best hand or it might not. The fun part is figuring out when it is and when it isn't. This cookie cutter disease is getting crazy.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yawn.

And going 'check-call, check-fold' is playing real poker? How could check-folding this turn ever be good? Or, alternatively, we do 'the Bruiser', that is, 'check-call, check-call, check-fold'. Is that better?

You realise everyone of Bruiser's posts lately have exhibited weak play? Do you not think a smart player like GoG would be betting this turn with a very wide range of hands, of which Danny is in very good shape against?

This situation is not uncommon. I gave my standard line because it's the one that over time I have decided upon as the best option.

I interchange this with leading the flop, which may be better in this situation because Danny is obviously scared of GoG, and he may want to take control of the hand early on.

I have tried check-raising in this situation with poor results. Maybe it was just bad timing. It does open you up to getting shoved over on the flop, or outplayed on later streets, neither of which you can do a lot about. I prefer the other lines.

Re: 50/100 vs. GoG
 

[ QUOTE ]
Or, alternatively, we do 'the Bruiser', that is, 'check-call, check-call, check-fold'

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL

I can see this being the new buzzword

Re: 50/100 vs. GoG
 

Hi Bruiser,

Lead on the flop. Playing it your way has led you to choosing between giving a free card when you're ahead and playing a big pot when he has you beat or has a nice draw, or wants to test you.

As you played it, check the turn, and if he bets a non-threatening card, raise him big. Betting out on the turn really puts him in charge; he gets to decide if he puts any significant money in the pot, pretty much knowing you have something. If you check-raise, at least his turn bet is made without that information.

Re: 50/100 vs. GoG
 

hey Bruiser,

Gab's not an idiot and he's got position on you and I'm sure he knows your style well....I don't like a stop and go in this situation because it basically puts him "in charge" (like Cero said) and in a spot where he can't make a mistake....you'll be defining your hand pretty well (I think) and he'll basically either fold, raise a better hand, semi-bluff a hand that has a lot of outs, or put you in a tough spot with some other hand.....again, I'm not exactly sure how you play your other hands, but let me ask you, how would you play a small flush?.....I think you should play this hand like that....the other suggestion is, it's 4-handed, why not reraise big preflop and then stick your stack in there?....

Re: 50/100 vs. GoG
 

HEy cero z that's an interesting idea didn't even occur to me to lead out, your line is appealing, those are the kind of thoughts I was having during the hand. Against a lot of opponents I would lead the turn and fold to a raise but against GoG I think I need to consider calling a raise on the turn if he goes all in. GoG any thoughts here or are they all still secret?

Re: 50/100 vs. GoG
 

after reading a couple of the posts, i think checkraising the flop is the absolute worse way to go.

bruiser, would you ever checkcall the flop and lead bet the turn with a monster hand? because checkcalling-betting is a very transparent play to good observent players if you only do it with vurnurable hands.

as it was i would have lead the flop myself and probably lead the turn again after that, being careful not to go broke. or start checkcalling-betting flopped flushes more to protect hands like these.

Re: 50/100 vs. GoG
 

I don't understand the suggestion of leading the flop.

In these heads up matches, the out of position caller checks the flop basically 100% of the time. The preflop raiser is going to bet basically 100%. Why would you voluntarily give up so much information and value by making your default play as leading flop with a hand as good as TPTK?

You can argue that you'll start to lead the flop with a wide range of hands. Once your opponent picks up on this it's not a great default line to be using. The pot has been inflated out of position with 2 additional streets of betting.

This isn't anywhere near as strong a default play as check-call, lead turn or even check raise.

There is also some serious meta game information missing. For example, how well "protected" are your passive lines, such as check-call, check-call, check? Can GoG narrow your hand range down to one of marginal strength with this line?

Re: 50/100 vs. GoG
 

just lead the flop

Re: 50/100 vs. GoG
 

[ QUOTE ]
In these heads up matches, the out of position caller checks the flop basically 100% of the time.

[/ QUOTE ]

[img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

have you actually played HU?

Re: 50/100 vs. GoG
 

Yes.

Assume a heads up match against two good aggressive players, with the SB on the button.

What percent of the time does the action go:

Button raise
BB call
BB check
Button bet

Basically always.

More importantly, what percent of the time has Brusier ever just led out here? 0%? 5%?

You know he's gonna bet. He knows that you know he's gonna bet. Why would you lead with TPTK?

Re: 50/100 vs. GoG
 

[ QUOTE ]


You know he's gonna bet. He knows that you know he's gonna bet. Why would you lead with TPTK?

[/ QUOTE ]so you can lead w/ 6high and top set.

i mean, youre serious right?

Re: 50/100 vs. GoG
 

As stated clearly in my original post, I said that yes of course, you can start leading with all sorts of stuff.

However.

You can just as easily check/call the flop and lead the turn with all sorts of stuff. You can check/raise the flop with all sorts of stuff.

I simply contend that either of these are stronger default lines out of position over the long run.

[ QUOTE ]
i mean, youre serious right?

[/ QUOTE ]

Serious as a heart attack brother

Re: 50/100 vs. GoG
 

[ QUOTE ]
What percent of the time does the action go:

Button raise
BB call
BB check
Button bet

Basically always.


[/ QUOTE ]

um. no.

[ QUOTE ]
You know he's gonna bet. He knows that you know he's gonna bet. Why would you lead with TPTK?

[/ QUOTE ]

becomes sometimes i hope to end the hand right then and there.

because sometimes i lead with flopped flushes and sets to protect the times i have tptk or middle pair or even a bluff.

there are lots of reasons to bet this flop. checking because "you know he'll bet" is not a good reason not to.

Re: 50/100 vs. GoG
 

My take on Bruiser's game is that he rarely leads a flop heads up out of position with TPTK "hoping to end the hand right there".

He isn't scared to check call the flop to catch the near automatic flop continuation bet from a very good and aggressive player, and then play poker from there.

Bruiser doesn't lead flops in these situations. To tell him to do it on THIS hand in a vacuum is silly.

Re: 50/100 vs. GoG
 

OOP against a great player on a super cordinated board. Sounds like a hand I dont want to be involved in. Needless to say, I like a lead on the turn folding to a raise. It's too risky to give him the oppurtunity to check behind in this situation.

Re: 50/100 vs. GoG
 

To reiterate: check-call, check-raise, or lead flop in this very common situation are all playing style considerations. I began to make an argument about which style I prefer, but there is not point in engaging in that here.

None of them are clearly correct or incorrect. People that lead flop here are going to do it with a lot of hands. People that check-raise here are going to do it with a lot of hands. People that check-call here are going to do it with a lot of hands.

Bruiser likes to check-call here. This is not wrong. Let's move on.

The meat of this hand is the action from the time the turn card peels off until completion.

Saying "lead flop" is simply lazy analysis.

Re: 50/100 vs. GoG
 

I hate these spots (who doesn't?)

I'm gonna go against the flow here and advocate 'pulling a Bruiser', as someone here called it - check-call flop, check-call turn (with this card), and hopefully check-check river.

Yes, it sucks to put him in control, but Í don't think you have much of a choice. It's the perfect example of a hand that hates a raise; too good to fold, not good enough to call. Reality is, you're in a crappy spot - out of position on a board with lots of scare cards, and a marginal hand. People don't hate these spots for nothing. There is no easy way to wiggle out of it. Weak play? Perhaps. But ýou're forced into it by the circumstances.

Look at it from this side: if you're gonna have a tough time calling a turn or river big bet, the decision has to be close, and whatever you do, it cannot be VERY wrong. If you're worried that he's taking advantage of your weakness and bluffing you off the best hand, call. If he does this often, calling should be profitable. If he doesn't, you can safely fold even though he might be bluffing some of the time, because mostly he'll be milking you.

Remember, it's no fun firing three barrels into somebody on a bluff. Maybe you're showing weakness but, hell, you are weak. Showing strength instead is nice, but not if it's gonna wind up costing you more.

If you don't set yourself up for a big mistake, such as calling a turn all in with just your pair of jacks, the situation can't be (much) more profitable for him than it will be for you if the spots are reversed.

H

Re: 50/100 vs. GoG
 

I cant stand the idea of check-calling this hand through.

Re: 50/100 vs. GoG
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Check-fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you're going to check-call this flop, and check-fold a blank turn, why are you even calling preflop?

[/ QUOTE ]

Why I like check-fold:

GoG raised preflop then fired a semi-dangerous flop. He could have anything here. Bruiser check-called which in my mind represents large strength (a made flush) to GoG. On the turn if Bruiser bets out after having check-called it does not correspond with powerful holdings. A flush would not bet out. A set, or very good draw would have put more in on the flop. Therefore after check-calling the flop Bruiser should not bet out the turn as it narrows his hand range to something that most likely cannot call a raise (like TPTK). So betting the turn gives GoG the advantage in knowing Bruiser's cards and allows him to make a great bluff or a necessary call. Sticking with the representation of a big hand Bruiser should check the turn. GoG at this point would have to be very daring to bluff or semi-bluff again. If GoG bets this turn I would have to believe he has either a good hand in need of protection like two pair/set or a made flush himself, all of which has Bruiser beat. Therefore I like check-fold to a decent sized bet. If it is under-bet then other lines are plausible.

Re: 50/100 vs. GoG
 

Hi scdavid,

[ QUOTE ]
You know he's gonna bet. He knows that you know he's gonna bet. Why would you lead with TPTK?

[/ QUOTE ]

In this case, you would do it to protect your hand while not becoming immediately committed without some better information.

If you check-raise the flop, as you suggest, you are put in an awful spot if he pushes. You know he could be doing this with hands that have you crushed, and with good draws that are about even with you with 2 cards to come, and occasionally with air. Tough fold, tough call; the opposite of your goal. Even if he just calls, he puts you in the spot where one more normal bet given the pot size commits you.

Leading into him gives you so much more info than check-calling or check-raising. If the action goes check, bet, call, he knows you have a decent hand, but you don't know anything about his hand, since he will automatically bet the flop, according to you. If you lead, he doesn't know if you have a set/straight/flush, the As, TP, a Str8+flush draw, or air. If he raises that bet, you have a better idea of his hand (almost certainly not air) than if you'd check-raised. Plus, you haven't put that 2nd bet in yet; he has.

Re: 50/100 vs. GoG
 

cero, 4handed in this spot as a "standard" would you be more likely to reraise/call/fold pf?