KJs in the monkey house
 

Canterbury 8/16 9 handed
This game is insane. The straddler here is a drunk crazy gambooooling Asian dude who raises blind often and is a nut. The next dude is a total fish retard. The next dude is also a total fish retard. I have the best seat in the game, as these retards are on my right and the TAGish players take up the 3 seats to my left (I seat change g00t [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]).

So, UTG straddles, UTG+1 of course CC's, next donkey now raises. He plays very poorly pre and postflop. he could have any ace here or any pair. He could have a monster too. I look down at K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. What's my move?

Re: KJs in the monkey house
 

I'd call. I like playing hands against bad players with position on them.
I don't see much of a reason to 4-bet unless you're afraid of some of the guys behind you and even then I don't think a 4-bet is keeping many hands out that you want out (maybe AJ?)
You've got a good hand and good position and people tend to go apeshit when there's a straddle.

-WT

Re: KJs in the monkey house
 

i wouldn't cap.

Re: KJs in the monkey house
 

[ QUOTE ]
i wouldn't cap.

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5 bets is the cap.

Re: KJs in the monkey house
 

4bet. Good hand good relative position, can't fold, drive out people behind you in the already big pot.

Re: KJs in the monkey house
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i wouldn't cap.

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5 bets is the cap.

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6bets w/ a straddle or no?
BTW/ raaaaise it.

Re: KJs in the monkey house
 

3 bet to try and get the TAGs behind you out of there. After that, just call into the flop.

b

Re: KJs in the monkey house
 

You fold and wait for a better opportunity. The range of hands is wide, yes but he's still will have you dominated enough. In addition, you are likely to pay more bets when you have Random-cap, gambool types in such a game.

Re: KJs in the monkey house
 

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In addition, you are likely to pay more bets when you have Random-cap, gambool types in such a game.

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You wouldn't take KJs to the flop in a ram n jam maniac game?

b

Re: KJs in the monkey house
 

easy 4 bet, hope to flop king hi or better, run good on the expensive streets and then rake the pot.

Re: KJs in the monkey house
 

he can't 3bet

Re: KJs in the monkey house
 

4bet for value? i fear, though, that you're setting yourself up to lose a lot of money most of the time. i.e.: 4betting might be distinctly NOT for value

Re: KJs in the monkey house
 

Wow it seems like the only one of you that has any brains is Joe tall... The best play here is to fold and wait for a better chance. Plus if the game is this stupid you'll likely be throwing away money. Guys this isn't a solar eclipse if the game is like this then they will keep pissing money away. I can't believe so many of you love this king jack suited (#&$^) it's such garbage of a hand. I'd much perfer to take a big hand (obviously) or even a Ace X wheel draw suited, small pp, jack ten off suit, something like that where i'm drawing to specific hand situations that will pay me off with all this loose action. The worst thing you want to do is get trapped with hitting a king or a jack and pissign money into the river just to find out your dead. Or even worse hitting your hand and not playing it agressively enough and letting someone get there. King jack suited is not a premium hand to pick a battle with, re raising at this point is a little too lose I think. Calling is about just as bad here. If we were in later position it'd be a different situation, espicaly with the 5 bet cap and straddle worst thing you can have is to get it capped preflop and hit a king now that your commited and you'd assume even one of these donkeys at least has a decent hand. You gotta remember that even though poker bobs excellent description using the terms 'retards' and 'fish' even they will find big hands time to time. And there is no real good reason for us to give their money back to them just because they find a big hand occasionally. SO all in all find a better spot dont' gamble, gambling is for donkeys. -Andrew

Re: KJs in the monkey house
 

If the lagtards will respect a preflop re-raise and fold on later streets if they whiff then re-raise. If not, call. Or raise and take free cards as necessary.

Re: KJs in the monkey house
 

That is the loser way to play it I agree with Hock completely. BUT i still favor laying this "Monster" hand down just too trapable. -Andrew

Re: KJs in the monkey house
 

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BUT i still favor laying this "Monster" hand down just too trapable

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Position, position, position.

Re: KJs in the monkey house
 

man im really leaning towards folding here. its a pretty hand but you gotta hit to win and hope not to be dominated.

Re: KJs in the monkey house
 

Call, why the hell not. You have position, you have suited overcards. If the drunk asian re-raises and then the donk re-reraises, fold. I doubt the donk knows that you know that the asian is drunk, in fact, I doubt the donk is playing the asian knowing that he is drunk as well. Donks just tend to play their cards.

I'm sure someone here said "Yeah, I'll fold." You know what - let me reiterate my position on cards so that people who cite preflop charts for rote won't bother me when I play 68s sometimes (hint hint, I'm making a post) - POKER DOESN'T EXIST IN A VACUUM. With dumbasses to the right and position, putting two small bets and gambling is just fine. There is just so much $$ to be had if you hit, so little to be lost if you miss.

Argun

Re: KJs in the monkey house
 

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You wouldn't take KJs to the flop in a ram n jam maniac game?


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Not for an average of 3+SBs, and it's very likely to be more than 3 in such a game.

Re: KJs in the monkey house
 

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You wouldn't take KJs to the flop in a ram n jam maniac game?


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Not for an average of 3+SBs, and it's very likely to be more than 3 in such a game.

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You realize that KJs in that type of game is well above their average hand that they're going to the flop with?

b

Re: KJs in the monkey house
 

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Call, why the hell not. You have position, you have suited overcards. If the drunk asian re-raises and then the donk re-reraises, fold.

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Once you call for 3 bets cold, you don't fold when it is 2 back to you. If you're going to fold, you do it at your initial turn to act and assume it can easily be reraised behind you.

b

Re: KJs in the monkey house
 

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i wouldn't cap.

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5 bets is the cap.

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Ugh. Having the straddle count towards the cap is laaaame.

Re: KJs in the monkey house
 

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Wow it seems like the only one of you that has any brains is Joe tall...

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This statement was unnecessary and probably hasn't helped anyone to believe you know what you're talking about.

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The best play here is to fold and wait for a better chance.

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We're on the medium stakes forum; we should be beyond the level of "oh, this situation is too marginal, I'm going to fold and wait for a really +EV situation.". In a given situation, it's either +EV to play, or it's not. If it's +EV, we need to play no matter how small that EV is.

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You gotta remember that even though poker bobs excellent description using the terms 'retards' and 'fish' even they will find big hands time to time.

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So what? What's your point? That's like saying you shouldn't 3-bet AKo against a blind raiser, because "even people who raise blind get aces and kings sometimes." Poor thought process. The players in this hand have certain hand ranges for choosing their given actions. The straddler has any two cards, the next guy probably has some large range of hands, but excluding premium hands, as he did not raise, and the third guy has Ax+ 22+ with some other hands thrown in. The discussion isn't about whether we can find a better spot or not. We know we can. The discussion is about which of the 3 options (raise, call, fold) yields the most EV in the long run.

Re: KJs in the monkey house
 

If you raise I think you'll pay 6 bets a fair amount of the time preflop, If you call in this type of game you may pay 6 bets a fair amount of the time also. I'm assuming 5 bet cap plus the straddle.

I don't really like the idea of playing hte hand in that situation if this is the normal texture of the game. We can afford to pass up some of the marginal edges at higher prices, for marginal edges at lower prices, or bigger edges at any price. Those will come more often.

Re: KJs in the monkey house
 

[Quote] So what? What's your point? That's like saying you shouldn't 3-bet AKo against a blind raiser, because "even people who raise blind get aces and kings sometimes." Poor thought process. The players in this hand have certain hand ranges for choosing their given actions. The straddler has any two cards, the next guy probably has some large range of hands, but excluding premium hands, as he did not raise, and the third guy has Ax+ 22+ with some other hands thrown in. The discussion isn't about whether we can find a better spot or not. We know we can. The discussion is about which of the 3 options (raise, call, fold) yields the most EV in the long run.

[/ QUOTE ]


I would say playing AK vs a blind steal is quite a bit different than the situation presented. If we were to lock this game down to 1 hand then the obvious play is to make it 4 bets. The problem is that this is never the case.

Case in point: Let's flip a coin.

YOu will have an edge of $0.01 on Every coin flip and the bet size will be $1,000,000 oh an every now and then I'll offer a bet size of $1.

When will you play? Everything is +EV

Re: KJs in the monkey house
 

[ QUOTE ]
I would say playing AK vs a blind steal is quite a bit different than the situation presented. If we were to lock this game down to 1 hand then the obvious play is to make it 4 bets. The problem is that this is never the case.

Case in point: Let's flip a coin.

YOu will have an edge of $0.01 on Every coin flip and the bet size will be $1,000,000 oh an every now and then I'll offer a bet size of $1.

When will you play? Everything is +EV

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you're misunderstanding my point. I was trying to say that using the logic "even fish get good hands occasionally, so we should fold" is faulty logic. If someone raises without looking at their cards, it's an easy 3-bet with AKo, even though their range includes AA/KK. By the poster's logic, we should fold AKo, because "even someone who raises in the dark gets aces and kings."

As for the situation you pointed out, it's a bit different than the situation that the OP has posted. The difference is that I don't have the bankroll to be making million dollar bets. I'm assuming the OP has the bankroll to play the stakes he's playing at. In limit hold'em (for the most part), there aren't situations where the variance is so high that it'll substantially increase our risk of ruin, assuming that we're properly bankrolled.

Re: KJs in the monkey house
 

My spread was exagerated just to illustrate the point. The players you describe are going to offer fairly constant odds to you, but your entry price will vary. So is it better to take the same odds with a 6SB entry fee or a 2SB entry fee given that you'll be able to build the greatest equity post flop?

Re: KJs in the monkey house
 

The EV varies with the amount of bets going in, though. I do agree that being able to come in for 1-2 SB is much better than 4-5 SB, but if 4-5 SB is the only option, and it's +EV, then the OP should be playing. Note, I never gave an opinion on the correct play for the situation. I was just pointing out the faulty logic used by one poster who also took it upon himself to insult the others in the thread regarding their intelligence.

Re: KJs in the monkey house
 

I'm sorry I didn't mean to imply you are wrong in your thinking. I'm making a bit of an assumption that this hand is not atypical for the OP's table, and usually that is a safe assumption.

The guy insulting everyones intelligence I had already marked as a troll and I don't see his posts.

Re: KJs in the monkey house
 

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I can't believe so many of you love this king jack suited (#&$^) it's such garbage of a hand.

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It's not a garbage hand but in this situation it's a fold given the texture of the game.

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jack ten off suit, something like that where i'm drawing to specific hand situations

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Now, JTo is a garbage hand in nearly every game.

Re: KJs in the monkey house
 

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...KJs in that type of game is well above their average hand that they're going to the flop with?

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Well above is an extremely exaggerated, b. KJs teeters on the neut-EV range in this situation. Bad players still get good cards my friend and we have to remember the 3-better knows that he'll likely pay 3+ bets to see ths flop.

Re: KJs in the monkey house
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
...KJs in that type of game is well above their average hand that they're going to the flop with?

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Well above is an extremely exaggerated, b. KJs teeters on the neut-EV range in this situation. Bad players still get good cards my friend and we have to remember the 3-better knows that he'll likely pay 3+ bets to see ths flop.

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It might not be that exaggerated if the guy is that loose preflop with his raises. If he has a history of jamming preflop anyways, his range isn't going to change much regardless of what he thinks may happen after his raise. Especially if he'd likely have 3 bet here if there wasn't a straddle but an actual wild raise in front of him. You may be giving him too much credit for thinking about that.

Bad players that jam alot preflop get bad cards much more than good cards when they're doing this. Much worse cards than KJs. Sure, sometimes they do actually have something. Them's the breaks when it does.

b

Re: KJs in the monkey house
 

I know Pstove is showdown numbers and poker does really work like that but here a run at it:

Hand 1: 28.7484 % [ 00.27 00.01 ] { AA-22, AKs-A2s, KQs-K8s, QJs-QTs, JTs, AKo-A2o, KQo-K9o, QJo-QTo, JTo }
Hand 2: 19.6655 % [ 00.19 00.01 ] { random }
Hand 3: 19.6635 % [ 00.19 00.01 ] { random }
Hand 4: 31.9227 % [ 00.31 00.01 ] { KJs }


For what it's worth I call w/KQs here:

Hand 1: 27.9476 % [ 00.27 00.01 ] { AA-22, AKs-A2s, KQs-K8s, QJs-QTs, JTs, AKo-A2o, KQo-K9o, QJo-QTo, JTo }
Hand 2: 19.3093 % [ 00.18 00.01 ] { random }
Hand 3: 19.2785 % [ 00.18 00.01 ] { random }
Hand 4: 33.4646 % [ 00.32 00.01 ] { KQs }

Re: KJs in the monkey house
 

[ QUOTE ]
I know Pstove is showdown numbers and poker does really work like that but here a run at it:

Hand 1: 28.7484 % [ 00.27 00.01 ] { AA-22, AKs-A2s, KQs-K8s, QJs-QTs, JTs, AKo-A2o, KQo-K9o, QJo-QTo, JTo }
Hand 2: 19.6655 % [ 00.19 00.01 ] { random }
Hand 3: 19.6635 % [ 00.19 00.01 ] { random }
Hand 4: 31.9227 % [ 00.31 00.01 ] { KJs }


For what it's worth I call w/KQs here:

Hand 1: 27.9476 % [ 00.27 00.01 ] { AA-22, AKs-A2s, KQs-K8s, QJs-QTs, JTs, AKo-A2o, KQo-K9o, QJo-QTo, JTo }
Hand 2: 19.3093 % [ 00.18 00.01 ] { random }
Hand 3: 19.2785 % [ 00.18 00.01 ] { random }
Hand 4: 33.4646 % [ 00.32 00.01 ] { KQs }

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2% difference between KJs and KQs? I'm coming in with both.

Where's the mid suited connectors that he could be 3 betting with also? [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

b

Re: KJs in the monkey house
 

I agree with Bernie. In games like this where guys are giving away their money by trying to build pots and jam everyone else off the hand, you need to be getting in there when you have position and show them your one of the guys. Get in there and take your share. If your going to fold KJ suited here to some random straddle and pot building raise, you should find a more comftorable game.

Re: KJs in the monkey house
 

I like a reraise here. I know people are saying you can be dominated but with typical Cant. 8/16 games they will be raising 79o, 25s etc...you are truly against a random range of hands. I think the key thing is position here. I love my position with this above average hand against bad postflop players. I think I'll be up in the beginning of January to play some 30.

Re: KJs in the monkey house
 

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2% difference between KJs and KQs? I'm coming in with both.


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We aren't playing KJs vs KQs, the difference is higher, look again.

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Where's the mid suited connectors that he could be 3 betting with also?

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I ran those in the airport last night too, still got the data but I just got home from the Red-eye so, I'm out of it. It's all still close to the same result as you can expect; post it later.

Re: KJs in the monkey house
 

[ QUOTE ]
We aren't playing KJs vs KQs, the difference is higher, look again

[/ QUOTE ]

I didn't say you were playing them vs one another. I see KJs having 31.9% and KQs having 33.46%. Unless I'm reading something wrong.

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 1: 28.7484 % [ 00.27 00.01 ] { AA-22, AKs-A2s, KQs-K8s, QJs-QTs, JTs, AKo-A2o, KQo-K9o, QJo-QTo, JTo }
Hand 2: 19.6655 % [ 00.19 00.01 ] { random }
Hand 3: 19.6635 % [ 00.19 00.01 ] { random }
Hand 4: 31.9227 % [ 00.31 00.01 ] { KJs }


For what it's worth I call w/KQs here:

Hand 1: 27.9476 % [ 00.27 00.01 ] { AA-22, AKs-A2s, KQs-K8s, QJs-QTs, JTs, AKo-A2o, KQo-K9o, QJo-QTo, JTo }
Hand 2: 19.3093 % [ 00.18 00.01 ] { random }
Hand 3: 19.2785 % [ 00.18 00.01 ] { random }
Hand 4: 33.4646 % [ 00.32 00.01 ] { KQs }


[/ QUOTE ]

Re: KJs in the monkey house
 

[ QUOTE ]
I didn't say you were playing them vs one another

[/ QUOTE ]

You are effectively saying it when you say this...

[ QUOTE ]
I see KJs having 31.9% and KQs having 33.46%

[/ QUOTE ]


[ QUOTE ]
Unless I'm reading something wrong

[/ QUOTE ]

You are reading fine, you just fail to see out of KJ vs KQ. When it is really

KJ vs their range

versus

KQ vs their range

Get it?

Re: KJs in the monkey house
 

[ QUOTE ]
You are reading fine, you just fail to see out of KJ vs KQ. When it is really

KJ vs their range

versus

KQ vs their range

Get it?


[/ QUOTE ]

How I'm seeing it is:

KJ v their range is 31.9%

KQ v their range is 33.46%

I'm not saying your playing against one another, you are comparing. How else can you compare them? Which is why I asked if I was missing something. Versus their range of hands, I see the difference as about 1.5% in having either hand against their range. How else am I supposed to interpret it? Easier: I'll just say both are at least 31.9% against the hand ranges. To me, that's enough to come in against 3 opponents with either hand.

b