Festa al Lago....Gigabet is weak tight at heart.
 

I'll just post the relevant players in this hand history. I will start be telling you that the game is 9 handed, I am the SB and Dan Harrington is the big blind. Our stacks are very nearly equal at around 120k a piece. The blinds are 600/1200.

Festa al Lago 10k Buy-In WPT Main Event
Blinds 600/1200

Seat 1 Gigabet(120,000)
Seat 2 Dan Harrington(120,000)


Gigabet posts small blind of 600
Dan Harrington posts big blind of 1200

Gigabet is dealt (Js,Th)

Gigabet calls 600
Dan Harrington Checks

Flop (Jd Th 3c)

Gigabet bets 2700
Dan Harrington raises to 7000
Gigabet calls

Turn (4h)

Gigabet bets 12,000
Dan Harrington raises to 30,000
Gigabet folds



Conversation between Dan and I during the hand, after Dan raises the turn card.

Gigabet: What do you have?
DAn: I have a very strong hand
Gigabet: I flopped Top Two pair
Dan: My hand is not that strong(referring to the strength of what I said my hand was)]

I should include the fact that the avg stack for the field is around 65k. The avg stack for my table was around 90k.




At the end of the second day, there are 39 or so players left, and I have 230k.

Re: Festa al Lago....Gigabet is weak tight at heart.
 

It sounds like he had KhQh or something similar, but this being Action Dan it could just as well be 4 3 offsuit

Re: Festa al Lago....Gigabet is weak tight at heart.
 

So what do you put him on?

Re: Festa al Lago....Gigabet is weak tight at heart.
 

I don't see how you can put him on exactly 333 after that action, and nothing else he has beats us.

Re: Festa al Lago....Gigabet is weak tight at heart.
 

If you were planning on folding to another raise, why not check call the turn, and put a blocking bet on the river (or check call again)


i'd really want to see a showdown here.

Re: Festa al Lago....Gigabet is weak tight at heart.
 

The way I see it, he can have 3 hands with action like this. JT, 33 or J3. KQ is absolutely unthinkable. One I lose to, one I chop with and one I win with. Why is this a tough fold?

Re: Festa al Lago....Gigabet is weak tight at heart.
 

I couldn't fold that hand to taht flop. I'd have played it more passive on the the flop and turn, but I just couldn't let it go at any point.

I'd probably donk it and just check/call all the way, maybe leading a little on the river. I wouldn't want to go broke in this spot, especially with those chips, but I still don't think I could fold.

Personally I think top two is strong enough to give free cards to on a rainbow board against a player who let me limp on his blind.

So does anyone except me check this flop?

[EDIT] BTW I can def see the arguement for folding here. Reasons have already been stated.

Re: Festa al Lago....Gigabet is weak tight at heart.
 

[ QUOTE ]
The way I see it, he can have 3 hands with action like this. JT, 33 or J3. KQ is absolutely unthinkable. One I lose to, one I chop with and one I win with. Why is this a tough fold?

[/ QUOTE ]

By the way, did you have that Th up your sleeve, or did the dealer put two packs together? [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Re: Festa al Lago....Gigabet is weak tight at heart.
 

I think that's the line I'd take throughout the hand, esp against someone with that stack... And I'm taking my time with each call.

Re: Festa al Lago....Gigabet is weak tight at heart.
 

[ QUOTE ]
The way I see it, he can have 3 hands with action like this. JT, 33 or J3. KQ is absolutely unthinkable. One I lose to, one I chop with and one I win with. Why is this a tough fold?

[/ QUOTE ]

Wouldn't J4 play it that way too?

And even if only J3,33,JT did it.. there are more combinations of J3 than 33 or JT, so you've got better than 50% equity.. though i can understand not risking a huge portion of your stack to that..

Re: Festa al Lago....Gigabet is weak tight at heart.
 

[ QUOTE ]
The way I see it, he can have 3 hands with action like this. JT, 33 or J3. KQ is absolutely unthinkable. One I lose to, one I chop with and one I win with. Why is this a tough fold?

[/ QUOTE ]

Or he knows you are aggressive and is playing back at you. He is very tight but he plays differently in blind vs. blind confrontations. I think he could easily have Jx hearts here.

By the way, what did you have here?

[ QUOTE ]

Date / Time: 2005-10-19 18:42:00
Title: Darrell Dicken Uses the Button
Log: David Oppenheim raised the pot preflop to $5,000 from early position. Eric Weiner called in late position and Darrell Dicken called on the button. The flop came Qd-9d-5h, and the action checked around. The turn brought the 4h, and Oppenheim fired out $14,000 in chips. Weiner quickly called, and the action was on Dicken. Dicken thought for a few moments, examining the board and eventually deciding to call. The river brought the 6h. Oppenheim checked, as did Weiner, and the action was back on Dicken who announced, "I'm all in," and started to move all of his chips forward. It was nearly a $100,000 bet, and that was enought to send Oppenheim into the tank. After a long period of deliberation, Oppenheim opted to fold. Weiner then started to talk, indicating that he thought Dicken was on a total bluff. "I'm sick," Weiner repeatedly said, before mucking his hand. Was it a position bet or was Dicken holding the nuts? You have to pay to find out.


[/ QUOTE ]

Re: Festa al Lago....Gigabet is weak tight at heart.
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'd probably donk it and just check/call all the way, maybe leading a little on the river. I wouldn't want to go broke in this spot, especially with those chips, but I still don't think I could fold.


[/ QUOTE ]

Why play this hand, or any hand for that for that matter, if you cannot get real value. If I am check calling, trying to get a cheap showdown, I add right around 10% to my stack(I imagine the pot would be around 12k at the showdown), that is for the times that I win. The times that I lose the hand, playing that way, I will lose more than 10% of my stack, because he is going to be betting more, making the pot larger, and allowing himself to make even larger bets on subsequent streets.

This line of play is a leak, that I see all of the time. Most players know that in situations where you are either way ahead or way behind, that it becomes obvious that either raising or folding is much better decision than all others if you could see the others cards. But since the cards cannot be seen, most players choose the middle ground, which is to call. That is faulty thinking, it is almost always better to pick one of the options that has a chance to be much better than all other possible decisions.

Re: Festa al Lago....Gigabet is weak tight at heart.
 

I had 72o, David actually bet 6k on the flop also. I was originally intending on representing diamonds, but the hearts got there instead, so I just had to make it incredibly unprofitable for them to call.

BTW, David spent 15 minutes in the tank, no one called for time, cause everyone at the table understood what an awful predicament I had put him in. He obviously had a big hand, but also understood that to make the call, he could never be wrong. Whole time he was in the tank, I was staring at the felt, with this mantra streaming through my mind. "pleasedontcallpleasedontcallpleasedontcallpleased ontcallpleasedontcallpleasedontcallpleasedontcallp leasedontcallpleasedon....)

Re: Festa al Lago....Gigabet is weak tight at heart.
 

[ QUOTE ]
I had 72o, David actually bet 6k on the flop also. I was originally intending on representing diamonds, but the hearts got there instead, so I just had to make it incredibly unprofitable for them to call.

[/ QUOTE ]

I just can't believe this. But if you say so, nh.

[ QUOTE ]
pleasedontcallpleasedontcallpleasedontcallpleasedo ntcallpleasedontcallpleasedontcallpleasedontcallpl easedontcallpleasedon....)

[/ QUOTE ]

no kidding!

Regards
Brad S

Re: Festa al Lago....Gigabet is weak tight at heart.
 

eh, forget that hand, the one I liked was when you did this

2005 WPT
Festa al Lago IV
No Limit Hold'em
Oct 20, 2005
01:41:31 EDT Darrell Dicken knocks out Eric Weiner

after calling the raise with 75o.

Steve

Re: Festa al Lago....Gigabet is weak tight at heart.
 

[ QUOTE ]
I had 72o, David actually bet 6k on the flop also. I was originally intending on representing diamonds, but the hearts got there instead, so I just had to make it incredibly unprofitable for them to call.

BTW, David spent 15 minutes in the tank, no one called for time, cause everyone at the table understood what an awful predicament I had put him in. He obviously had a big hand, but also understood that to make the call, he could never be wrong. Whole time he was in the tank, I was staring at the felt, with this mantra streaming through my mind. "pleasedontcallpleasedontcallpleasedontcallpleased ontcallpleasedontcallpleasedontcallpleasedontcallp leasedontcallpleasedon....)

[/ QUOTE ]

This should be sweet to see on TV.

Re: Festa al Lago....Gigabet is weak tight at heart.
 

Is the possibility he is simply bluffing not an actual possibility?

Re: Festa al Lago....Gigabet is weak tight at heart.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Why play this hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

Because JTs is soooo pretty dammit.

Seriously, I'm trying to understand what your saying but it might be beyond my comprehension. Let's say he has you beat on the flop with 33, TT, JJ. First of all I'm not quite sure he's going to bet the flop, but even if he does for say, 2/3 pot, then bets the same on the turn and river, you'll be in for 20k, which is about what you were in for by the turn in your example. Honestly though, I'm not quite you are going to be in for that much if he's flopped a set in a BvB situation, especially if you call with a lot of reluctance.

I understand your idea about getting full value if he has a worse hand, but don't you think a)the times he ends up calling you down with worse hands after showing flop passivity, b) the times you get him to bet at the pot with air, and c) the times you thwart him getting you to lay the best hand down, make up for all of this?

[ QUOTE ]
Most players know that in situations where you are either way ahead or way behind

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't you think that's very tough in a situation such as this? Personally I think Dan could have a few more hands than you put him on, even with the turn raise.

And BTW I'm not advocating playing the hand this way all the time, but under these circumstances... well yes I am a pansy.

Re: Festa al Lago....Gigabet is weak tight at heart.
 

Jeezus.. Doing it with the diamonds takes balls, but when the hearts got there...

OMFG... nh.

Re: Festa al Lago....Gigabet is weak tight at heart.
 

I'm with seadood here, i dont see how check calling, maybe leading on the river, would be losing more value than folding top two pair in a blind v blind hand, on a not scary board.

Re: Festa al Lago....Gigabet is weak tight at heart.
 

[ QUOTE ]
I had 72o,

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually?

Re: Festa al Lago....Gigabet is weak tight at heart.
 

err... what doyou think about checck raising the turn?

Re: Festa al Lago....Gigabet is weak tight at heart.
 

hi Gigabet,


My problem with this is that it is a BB-SB confrontation. Even the tightest players muscle up there. Surely Dan Harrington knows he is up against a creative, aggresive opponent. Perhaps his raise was just for info and potentially a free showdown? Or maybe he was playing position with a marginal hand? Without some ungodly read, this fold seems unthinkable to me.

also- dan had position on you preflop. I don't know how aggresive he was playing, but perhaps he would have raised your sb limp with 33 and position?

oh and did you really have 72o? lol, wow!

Re: Festa al Lago....Gigabet is weak tight at heart.
 

Why not reraise Dan on the flop... you went ahead and bet the turn anyway. (Dan is not going to just call you... he will bet/raise or fold). What was your image at the table? How have you played recently, and how had you been playing from the small blind (regardless of the cards you played from SB)?

I think that Dan is defending his blind, playing his position on you and backing it up with his tight image... Are you the only two in the hand? If so, and if he had JJ, TT he would definitely raise pf, and probably w/ 33 too if it is just you two. IMO, you folded best hand... but you're gigabet and I am a novice...

Re: Festa al Lago....Gigabet is weak tight at heart.
 

Why are you overbetting the pot on the flop giga? That way you build a monster pot, but you are not willing to put all your chips in with top two, heads up. You must think about this before betting or not?

If you do think he is not going to pay you something if he is beat you can just check it down, fold to a bet or call a induced bluff on the river. Urgh but weak tight.

My line: 1/3 of the pot on the flop as a "feeling" bet. You are not giving him the right odds for any weak draw and you don't tell him anything about your hand. Heads up he is going to raise with top or middle pair and some very good draws like KQ. I call his raise on the flop. The four is not dangerous, so i show maximum strength checkraising to a third of your stacks. Now the pressure is on him.
If he then is still in there he has trips and i don't pay any more on the river or to a reraise on the turn.

But back to your line. I see Dan playing this way with JT, J3, J4, T3 and 33. JJ and TT he would raise preflop and there is just one combination left of each so take them out.

There are 27 combination you dominate with over 95% and only 3 combinations where you are a 91% underdog. How can you fold? Aha, the answer is in the title of the post ... :-)

I bet he had T3 and got away lucky.

Re: Festa al Lago....Gigabet is weak tight at heart.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Why not reraise Dan on the flop

[/ QUOTE ]

I ask the same thing, and I think you might have given away the strenght of your hand by just calling.

Calling on the flop seems to say you want a cheap showdown. But you didn't want this to be too obvious so you aggressively (block) betted the turn. Harrington read this and bluff raised you.

Or he simply had 33 and you were right...

Re: Festa al Lago....Gigabet is weak tight at heart.
 

I understand where Gig is coming from... Harrington is clearly trying to jack up the pot size here (I get VERY suspicious when people raise the flop AND turn). Also given his situation in the tournament a fold doesn't hurt him too badly but getting stacked, well, kind of does. Regardless, I would have gotten all of my chips in there, call it a leak [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: Festa al Lago....Gigabet is weak tight at heart.
 

I can't put him on 33 after the flop raise no matter how much I try, but he might just play it that way vs. a LAG. I think I'm willing to go for broke vs. J3 here, but I realize you think your edge is greater. nh. Almost as nice as the 72o.

Re: Festa al Lago....Gigabet is weak tight at heart.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Why not reraise Dan on the flop... you went ahead and bet the turn anyway. (Dan is not going to just call you... he will bet/raise or fold).


[/ QUOTE ]

I usually don't do this, but the more I think about it the more I like this line.

Are there problems with reraising? Are there better ways to get value out of this hand when you're ahead, and/or lose less chips when behind?

Re: Festa al Lago....Gigabet is weak tight at heart.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why not reraise Dan on the flop... you went ahead and bet the turn anyway. (Dan is not going to just call you... he will bet/raise or fold).


[/ QUOTE ]

I usually don't do this, but the more I think about it the more I like this line.

Are there problems with reraising? Are there better ways to get value out of this hand when you're ahead, and/or lose less chips when behind?

[/ QUOTE ]

You have to know your opponent. Calling could be correct against a weak opponent I guess, but not against Action Dan

Re: Festa al Lago....Gigabet is weak tight at heart.
 

The only thing that beats you is a set. If Harrington had a pp, why didn't he raise preflop when you completed in the SB? I don't think KQ is likely, for the same reason, but he he could have 98. Given your image, even though you like to play flops, Harrington is going to assume a complete is a weak hand, and will probably raise with any decent hand with position.

Given your aggressive image, Harrington could be playing back with nothing or little SB vs. BB. I think you have to call or raise the turn bet.

JTo is pretty strong heads up. Why not raise preflop?

Re: Festa al Lago....Gigabet is weak tight at heart.
 

isn't T3 a pretty likely hand that you're destroying that you haven't considered?

Re: Festa al Lago....Gigabet is weak tight at heart.
 

If the villain was an unknown as opposed to being Dan Harrington, would you have played this any differently?

Re: Festa al Lago....Gigabet is weak tight at heart.
 

What butt heads sb vs bb when you've got twice the average stack, out of position, and totally guessing where you're at. I'm with giga on this one, not really a difficult fold.

He's at $230k now. Lay that hand down and pick better spots the rest of the day. It's easy to say what the right play was after we know his hand is good.

Re: Festa al Lago....Gigabet is weak tight at heart.
 

[ QUOTE ]
If the villain was an unknown as opposed to being Dan Harrington, would you have played this any differently?

[/ QUOTE ]

I can't speak for Gigabet, but I might. The turn raise really screams strength. A good player only raises there with a very strong or very weak (i.e. bluff) hand I think, with a good hand, those stacks and the pot size I'm pretty sure a good player will just call there. Dan is definitely a good player, and unknown may not be.

Re: Festa al Lago....Gigabet is weak tight at heart.
 

[ QUOTE ]
isn't T3 a pretty likely hand that you're destroying that you haven't considered?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yea, i just thought of that too.

Think there are 3 hands we beat here: T3,J3,J4

and there aer 6 combinations of each of those, so 18 combos we kill.

1 hand we tie with, JT, 4 combos of that.

1 hand that beats us, 3 combos of that.

So we're winning 18 times, tying 4 times, losing 3 times.


Maybe T3 doesnt raise the turn like that, so then it would be 12v4v3

Still a good situation for us, and we'd have to think his hand was more weighed towards 33, and i dont think we can do that.

Re: Festa al Lago....Gigabet is weak tight at heart.
 

[ QUOTE ]
If the villain was an unknown as opposed to being Dan Harrington, would you have played this any differently?

[/ QUOTE ]

I would think against an unknown who play the flop and turn this way (after a PF check), I would be more likely to give them credit, not less. This is why I suck though...I could never make this laydown.

Re: Festa al Lago....Gigabet is weak tight at heart.
 

[ QUOTE ]

Whole time he was in the tank, I was staring at the felt, with this mantra streaming through my mind. "pleasedontcallpleasedontcallpleasedontcallpleased ontcallpleasedontcallpleasedontcallpleasedontcallp leasedontcallpleasedon....)

[/ QUOTE ]

I like to use "Thesearenotthedroidsyou'relookingforThesearenotth edroidsyou'relookingforThesearenotthedroidsyou'rel ookingforThesearenotthedroidsyou'relookingfor..."

Nice play.

Re: Festa al Lago....Gigabet is weak tight at heart.
 

Wow. This does not jibe with my image of Gigabet from Play a Hand with the Masters, where he says

"When I really like my hand(meaning I will go broke with it), I do not put my opponent on a range of hands. I know that I want everything to get in the middle, so I just need to figure out how to do that."

The 4 cannot have helped Dan, so the only hands that beat Gigabet are:

33 - 3 ways
TT - 1 way
JJ - 1 way

There are 18 ways Dan can have QQ++ and 12 ways for a weaker 2 pr. 30 hands that Dan could be playing like this.

I think he shows his final stack at the EOD to justify his laydown as he has EV in the tournament. Sure he has EV, but how much?

I don't like how he played the hand. If Gigabet is not willing to get all his chips in on this flop/safe turn (because his stack is so deep), then he should engineer the betting so that he gets to put the T30,000 bet in and test Dan for all his chips.

Re: Festa al Lago....Gigabet is weak tight at heart.
 

I think Dan might check 33 in the big blind there.

[ QUOTE ]
I can't speak for Gigabet, but I might. The turn raise really screams strength. A good player only raises there with a very strong or very weak (i.e. bluff) hand I think, with a good hand, those stacks and the pot size I'm pretty sure a good player will just call there. Dan is definitely a good player, and unknown may not be.

[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree. Dan does not need a very big hand to make that raise. The actual size of the raise is a little suspicious, It almost looks like Dan is trying to buy a showdown... I think he probably folds a lot of worse hands to a three bet.

Obviously I don't know past history, and can only guess on the players' percieved images, but it seems to me that it would make sense to call and lead the river, or c/c river if for some reason giga thinks dan is making a move (clearly he didn't think that though). C/r turn seems like an OK line, but I think i like calling Dan's raise and betting.