Flop action, annoying player takes different lines
 

So this guy was my "mark" at the 400NL 6 max table, with 95/20 stats. Unfortunately he's not co-operating. Generally he's been playing aggressively but quite randomly, and showing down very few hands.

He's in the SB when I'm in the cut-off, and he's been calling all raises and I'm not hitting. First, when I bet the flop, he called, we checked the turn, and he led the river; later, I checked behind on the flop and he bet the turn. On a third occasion, he led the flop for 2/3 pot.

I'm raising 13% hands, and playing normally (ie mostly taking the pot on the flop) against everyone else.

Hand 1

So, I open raise to $16 with J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. Folded to SB (villain), who calls. Effective stack size $350.

Flop 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Check, I lead $26 into $38 pot, he check-raises to $175. Are my jacks a through ticket here? Call and move in on any non-club turn? Fold (gasp)?

Hand 2

50 odd hands later. Effective stack sizes about $450. I've raised villain's BB pre-flop and been bet off the pot on the turn in between.

I raise to $16 from CO-1 with Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], SB (villain) and BB calls. BB is loose and passive, and tight post flop (34/2). I've seen him min check-raise a few times.

Flop $48 and 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Villain leads for $30 and BB calls. My move?

Re: Flop action, annoying player takes different lines
 

Hand 1, fold or move in with folding as my favorite. Hand 2, move allin

Re: Flop action, annoying player takes different lines
 

[ QUOTE ]
He's in the SB when I'm in the cut-off, and he's been calling all raises and I'm not hitting. First, when I bet the flop, he called, we checked the turn, and he led the river; later, I checked behind on the flop and he bet the turn. On a third occasion, he led the flop for 2/3 pot.

[/ QUOTE ]

why are you letting him run you over?

Re: Flop action, annoying player takes different lines
 

Xorbie,

Well running terribly has something to do with it; but then again, bluffing random players who look like they might have calling station tendencies is not the best idea...

So I was waiting either for evidence that he was making moves or for a hand that could beat second pair... but when my chance comes (hand 1), I'm not too sure I'm ahead given the action.

Did I play those three other hands I listed badly? For reference, I had AK vs JTx, KQ vs 754, AT vs Q98.

Re: Flop action, annoying player takes different lines
 

hand1, his c/r issobig callingand pushing some turns is not an option. easy all in vs said maniac.

hand 2 i'dcall, but you have options here.

Re: Flop action, annoying player takes different lines
 

If you aren't willing to "gamble" with JJ in hand 1, then you are almost certainly never going to beat this guy. You must be able and willing to push with hands like this one against someone who is picking up lots of your dead money.

Re: Flop action, annoying player takes different lines
 

[ QUOTE ]
hand 2 i'dcall, but you have options here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Bobbo,

What would you be considering in the call/raise decision here?

Eg pro-raising: villain probably didn't have strong hand as he wasn't check raising, tight player might have a better draw, which I might knock out with a big raise, there's some money in the pot worth stealing.

Eg pro-calling: I don't have a made hand in a multi-way pot in which 2 people aren't bothered that I haven't acted yet; and I'm getting good odds.

The raising arguments seem stronger to me... what am I missing?

Re: Flop action, annoying player takes different lines
 

it has to do with stack sizes- if you just mentally seewhat happens when you raise, it's not as nice aswhen you call. but assaid, you have options

Re: Flop action, annoying player takes different lines
 

[ QUOTE ]
If you aren't willing to "gamble" with JJ in hand 1, then you are almost certainly never going to beat this guy. You must be able and willing to push with hands like this one against someone who is picking up lots of your dead money.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey Marlow,

Interesting point.

Not necessarily to disagree that I should put my money in in this situation, but I think this is an overstatement.

In advance of positively correlating his actions with his hands, my default plan is to value bet the hell out of him whenever I hit > 2nd pair.

I'm not sure that it is necessary to get my chips in the first time he raises me in order to make money against this player. But obviously I'm far from convinced either way, hence the post!

Re: Flop action, annoying player takes different lines
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If you aren't willing to "gamble" with JJ in hand 1, then you are almost certainly never going to beat this guy. You must be able and willing to push with hands like this one against someone who is picking up lots of your dead money.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hey Marlow,

Interesting point.

Not necessarily to disagree that I should put my money in in this situation, but I think this is an overstatement.

In advance of positively correlating his actions with his hands, my default plan is to value bet the hell out of him whenever I hit > 2nd pair.

I'm not sure that it is necessary to get my chips in the first time he raises me in order to make money against this player. But obviously I'm far from convinced either way, hence the post!

[/ QUOTE ]

I think I misunderstood your OP. I thought you were strongly considering a fold there.