You remember i hate those Js? Well they are back! (PS215!)
 

OMG I HATE YOU POCKET JACKS

PokerStars Game #3051005928: Tournament #14407693, Hold'em No Limit - Level VIII (200/400) - 2005/11/13 - 18:35:40 (ET)
Table '14407693 97' Seat #9 is the button
Seat 1: aggchar (3142 in chips)
Seat 2: Par65 (8197 in chips)
Seat 3: oskar (3672 in chips)
Seat 4: TwistedEcho (16900 in chips)
Seat 5: QT576 (6225 in chips)
Seat 6: johnnypuma (10645 in chips)
Seat 7: goerger5587 (4515 in chips)
Seat 8: TNT65 (5460 in chips)
Seat 9: epark109 (17958 in chips)
aggchar: posts the ante 25
Par65: posts the ante 25
oskar: posts the ante 25
TwistedEcho: posts the ante 25
QT576: posts the ante 25
johnnypuma: posts the ante 25
goerger5587: posts the ante 25
TNT65: posts the ante 25
epark109: posts the ante 25
aggchar: posts small blind 200
Par65: posts big blind 400
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to TwistedEcho [Jd Js]
oskar: folds
TwistedEcho: raises 800 to 1200
QT576: folds
johnnypuma: folds
goerger5587: folds
TNT65: folds
epark109: raises 2400 to 3600
aggchar: folds
Par65: folds
TwistedEcho: calls 2400
*** FLOP *** [9h 3s Tc]
TwistedEcho: checks
epark109: bets 6000
TwistedEcho: raises 7275 to 13275 and is all-in

Re: You remember i hate those Js? We\'ll they are back! (PS215!)
 

its certainly risky. the only other two lines are a) folding preflop (dont like it); or b) leading the flop and folding to a raise (lot of chips in there by the time you fold). its risky, but i mean, you've got to get some chips at some point. may as well stick it in there.

Re: You remember i hate those Js? We\'ll they are back! (PS215!)
 

bare in mind the ave is about 9k, so before the hand im in pretty nice shape tournamentwise

Re: You remember i hate those Js? We\'ll they are back! (PS215!)
 

[ QUOTE ]
bare in mind the ave is about 9k, so before the hand im in pretty nice shape touranemtwise.

[/ QUOTE ]

well, right, but its not like you're killing the tourney and you're matching up with "the one stack that can cripple you" or something like that. you've got a bit under 2x average... a nice stack, definitely, but you haven't won it yet.

i think that once you've called preflop, you've pretty much committed yourself to getting your chips in there on any undercard/set flop. at least, that's the way my mindset would be.

Re: You remember i hate those Js? We\'ll they are back! (PS215!)
 

[ QUOTE ]
i think that once you've called preflop, you've pretty much committed yourself to getting your chips in there on any undercard/set flop. at least, that's the way my mindset would be.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: You remember i hate those Js? We\'ll they are back! (PS215!)
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i think that once you've called preflop, you've pretty much committed yourself to getting your chips in there on any undercard/set flop. at least, that's the way my mindset would be.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't like this here. After the preflop action, the flop and that bet, what is hero ahead of? He is behind all pairs 99 and up. A missed AK is the only hand hero beats. A laydown here is probably correct.

Re: You remember i hate those Js? We\'ll they are back! (PS215!)
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i think that once you've called preflop, you've pretty much committed yourself to getting your chips in there on any undercard/set flop. at least, that's the way my mindset would be.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't like this here. After the preflop action, the flop and that bet, what is hero ahead of? He is behind all pairs 99 and up. A missed AK is the only hand hero beats. A laydown here is probably correct.

[/ QUOTE ]

what flop would you be happy with then (other than one containing a J)?

are you just folding preflop?

Re: You remember i hate those Js? We\'ll they are back! (PS215!)
 

i called preflop because A) i hate JJ, B) a set is fun, and c) if the flop came low cards i was going to reevaluate. Then i decided wtf lets gamboooool and decided i was getting allin

Re: You remember i hate those Js? We\'ll they are back! (PS215!)
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i think that once you've called preflop, you've pretty much committed yourself to getting your chips in there on any undercard/set flop. at least, that's the way my mindset would be.

[/ QUOTE ]

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't like this here. After the preflop action, the flop and that bet, what is hero ahead of? He is behind all pairs 99 and up. A missed AK is the only hand hero beats. A laydown here is probably correct.

[/ QUOTE ]

what flop would you be happy with then (other than one containing a J)?

are you just folding preflop?

[/ QUOTE ]

Let's see. What about evaluating each piece of information in context with one another? The flop is not independent of villain's flop bet is not independent of villain's preflop bet is not independent of hero's bet is not independent of hero's holding.

Look, I know pushing is an easy and common play, and it's easy to say "overpair vs. overpair, what can you do." But I think there's something to be said for identifying that you're behind here, or at least trying to use the information available to determine so, and not just saying "It's an overpair, all in!"

So let's look at the action:

Hero raises UTG+1, representing a strong hand. Opponent reraises, but not all-in-- NOT disinviting action. This suggests a stronger hand than JJ, but is not necessarily so-- could be AK or even TT-99. So, sure, it's OK to call.
Now: The flop comes down T9x. If he has a reraising pair, it's now beating you. You're only beating AK. His large flop bet suggests he's already made.

Whether or not you disagree with any of this is up to you, but this is my thought process which suggests a laydown here.

Re: You remember i hate those Js? We\'ll they are back! (PS215!)
 

[ QUOTE ]
Look, I know pushing is an easy and common play, and it's easy to say "overpair vs. overpair, what can you do." But I think there's something to be said for identifying that you're behind here, or at least trying to use the information available to determine so, and not just saying "It's an overpair, all in!"

[/ QUOTE ]

i don't disagree with this, but i do think that given these stack sizes, and the pot size by the time the flop comes around, that we just don't have enough room to find out enough information to get us to fold an overpair. i certainly don't think him 2/3 potting it, which may just be a standard CB, provides us with some sort of information that puts him on a hand better than ours.