Re: Raise the flop?
 

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just call the flop, it looks like youre toasted.

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a bet and a call and suddenly we are toast with an overpair?

Krishan

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yeah, i'm surprised by some of the comments so far. I've seen plenty of bets here by any K and calls with a pair/any piece of the flop. I'm raising this flop and expecting to win this hand unless things get really ugly.

Re: Raise the flop?
 

with a solid player donkbetting on that board into a field of players instead of checkraising it usually means exactly 1 thing, maybe 2. by raising the flop you are committing yourself to showdown since you have a gutshot. i do admit that its close but i do prefer calling in this situation.

Re: Raise the flop?
 

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Raising it makes it easier because if you get 3-bet, you can call and fold turn UI

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I don't know about that. Let's say Hero raises, BB 3-bets, MP calls, and Hero calls. There are now 8.75 BB in the pot. If BB leads out on the turn and MP calls, you'll be getting 10.75:1 to call.

Outs (discounted) are:
- 2 (1.5) for an Ace
- 4 (3.5) for a Queen
- 12 (4) for 2 pair, assuming the turn is a non-club and doesn't pair the board
- 9 for a club if the turn is a club

The turn call is a pretty easy call UI unless faced with calling 2 bets cold. Like SSHE says, a lot of times when you build a pot early with a big hand you usually commit yourself to showing it down because of pot odds.

Re: Raise the flop?
 

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with a solid player donkbetting on that board into a field of players instead of checkraising it usually means exactly 1 thing, maybe 2. by raising the flop you are committing yourself to showdown since you have a gutshot. i do admit that its close but i do prefer calling in this situation.

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I lead on that board with a wide range of pair+draw hands. I'd estimate that you are ahead of about 70% of my range.

Krishan

Re: Raise the flop?
 

as mentioned you cant fold the turn when 3bet on the flop because you often have 9 outs to improve.

Re: Raise the flop?
 

oh really krishan, ok then maybe i am confused by the tags betting range then. because i am not a fan of donkbetting, i like to checkraise in almost all situations. i would put the tag on 2pair, straight, clubs or maybe a Q. he could also have a king of course but i think checkraise is far superior. however, i think a queen should definitely checkcall and not donkbet because theres no reason to clear out the field. there is also no value in trying to get the preflop raiser to raise trapping the field with a draw because you are probably chopping if you catch a straight with your queen anyway.

Re: Raise the flop?
 

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oh really krishan, ok then maybe i am confused by the tags betting range then. because i am not a fan of donkbetting, i like to checkraise in almost all situations. i would put the tag on 2pair, straight, clubs or maybe a Q. he could also have a king of course but i think checkraise is far superior. however, i think a queen should definitely checkcall and not donkbet because theres no reason to clear out the field. there is also no value in trying to get the preflop raiser to raise trapping the field with a draw because you are probably chopping if you catch a straight with your queen anyway.

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Okay, I could have

KJ - 9 ways
KT - 9 ways
JT - 9 ways, I definitely cr this though.
Q9 - 16 ways

or

KQ - 12 ways
QJ - 12 ways
K9 - 12 ways
QT - 12 ways
2clubs + a pair - a few ways.

The thing is I feel pretty secure betting my strong Q draws (maybe I shouldn't because a split is likely).

Krishan

Re: Raise the flop?
 

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I raise this flop more often then I call. It makes the rest of the hand easier and I feel like I've got quite a bit of equity even with 3 broadway out.

Krishan

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I'd really be interested in hearing more about this if someone would be willing to elaborate. It would be most interesting with a generic explanation... that I can print, frame and put on the wall for future hands...

Re: Raise the flop?
 

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Okay, I could have

KJ - 9 ways
KT - 9 ways
JT - 9 ways, I definitely cr this though.
Q9 - 16 ways

or

KQ - 12 ways
QJ - 12 ways
K9 - 12 ways
QT - 12 ways
2clubs + a pair - a few ways.

The thing is I feel pretty secure betting my strong Q draws (maybe I shouldn't because a split is likely).

Krishan

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What is your logic behind donkbetting with QJ, QT?

You are behind the big majority of the time in a four-way pot.
You are very unlikly to take it down UI.

Your draw is weak.
3 outs to Q improve any A, 9 to a straight. (Very bad)
Your 2 trips outs are a bit tainted. (will maybe win you the pot 50%-75%)

You out yourself at risk of getting raised (and 3-bet).
I just don't see why you aren't check-calling QJ, QT?


KQ, K9 I can see... because you don't want to risk giving a free card?

RESULTS
 

Turn: 5 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

<font color="red">BB bets</font>, <font color="red">MP raises</font>, Hero...

Well, I think Hero has to fold. He will not win this hand often.
But still he knows that occationally he is folding the best hand and occationally he is folding what would become the best hand. So folding sucks.

As it turns out BB held [K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]] and MP held [K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]].
Hero folded the best hand.

What do you think about MP:s raise?

Presonally I think it was bad.

And I think there is a lesson I can learn from this hand. I don't know excactly what it is and I'd appreciate your help. I'd think it is something along the lines of: "If there are players between you and the bettor who might push you out of a winning hand unless you show strenght, then that is a strong reson for you to show strength". Generally speaking this occurs more the more aggressive the players between you and the bettor are.

If you can describe the lesson I need to ask more accuratly or compleatly, then feel free to write your suggestion or add lines to the above lesson.


Thank you guys for helping me with this hand.
I really appreciate it and I hope you found it interesting as well!