Putting Fish to the Flame. Harmless fun, or education?
 

It's often said not to criticize a fish for his/her poor play. The logic is that you don't want them to realize they are making mistakes and correct them. I think this has some merit against some decent-mediocre opponents who just have some leaks in their game; no need to help them out. But against a true fish I feel there is no danger whatsoever in roasting them, ESPECIALLY after their bad play has just won them a pot.

I doubt you could ever convince a terrible, non-thinking player that they made a bad play if it resulted in them winning the pot. Thus I feel there is no harm in roasting their play in such a circumstance, and in fact are even benefits. They interpret that as you being upset that they got the best of you, not that you understand something they don't. All the more reason for them to keep playing their normal game; they can get lucky and scoop a pot every once in a while and make an opponent mad. They love that type of stuff! It's what the fish live for. This scolding will almost never result in them going home and re-evaluating their play, rather they will gleefully remember when they 'upset' you by hitting a 2-outer against them and really look forward to doing it again. I say roast away.

PlayerX: "You limped in w/ 83 UTG? WTF were you thinking moron?"

FishyMcFish's thoughts: "yeah, i was thinking I'd limp in and flop 2-pair against your AA and win this pot, just like I did. BOOYA!"

What FishyMcFish doesn't think: "Oh crap. you're right. This play is probably costing me money in the long run. I need to start thinking big picture. let me go home and re-evaluate my life, and come back next week as a solid player ready to take your money!"

If fish were capable of having these thoughts they wouldn't be fish.

Now, if a fish has just made a bad play and lost a pot there's no need to flame him, in fact there's every reason to let him think he made a good play but got unlucky. In those spots encourage the fish if the opportunity is there.

But one may respond "OK, but what benefits are there to roasting them?" A few possibilities. First you can put them on tilt and they'll try to come after you even more often with garbage than they normally would. The caveat is that if talking trash puts YOU on tilt and makes you start going after the fish in bad spots and affecting your game, then you shouldn't do it. But even if you don't talk trash they might be affecting your play so this is something that always needs to be considered regardless either way.

Re: Putting Fish to the Flame. Harmless fun, or education?
 

you must NEVER, under any circumstances, "Tap the Glass". This play is -EV IMO. I think everything you say at the poker table has to have some kind of strategic value to it, even it you are carrying on a normal conversation. You must realiza the cause and effect of ALL of your actions at the poker table, and how it will effect the game, your image at the table and how your opponents play. Plus it is never polite to criticize anyone's play IMO. If you want to try to get someone to go on tilt, aim your comments at a solid player, since you are trying to get his money too. You shouldn't be pushing the fish around along with another solid player, you should try to establish dominance over the entire table. If you want to appear friendly, do that, if you want to appear aggressive and mean, do that, but everything you say and do should effect your image at the table and you should try to effect the way your opponents play against you. Poker is war my friend, even at the lowest levels. Notice inthe mob movies, the hitmen are always smiling and friendly, just before they do some guy? That should be you.

Re: Putting Fish to the Flame. Harmless fun, or education?
 

Sounds like you have low emotional control and cannot control your outburst and are just trying to find some justification for your childishness.

Learn to understand the game better and you won't have such issues.

Re: Putting Fish to the Flame. Harmless fun, or education?
 

i think you're overlooking the fact that, whether or not they take your "advice", berating them might cause them to get up and leave. most poor players are playing for fun. they're playing poker because they enjoy it. certainly, being called an idiot is not enjoyable. so while they may not learn the proper play from your tirade, they very well might realize it is not worth it to sit at a table with a bunch of jerks who are telling you time and time again how stupid you are.

so from a self-interest perspective you are probably not doing yourself any favors by potentially scaring them away. also (and this may or may not matter to you) most of them simply don't deserve to be berated. the bad beat they put on you wasn't personal--they just don't know any better. this doesn't mean they should be called an idiot. nobody deserves that for trying to have fun playing a game (albeit one they don't properly understand). now if the guy is an a$$hole to begin with, then ok, but i don't think this is the case for most of these bad players.

Re: Putting Fish to the Flame. Harmless fun, or education?
 

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berating them might cause them to get up and leave. most poor players are playing for fun. they're playing poker because they enjoy it. certainly, being called an idiot is not enjoyable.

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Re: Putting Fish to the Flame. Harmless fun, or education?
 

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But against a true fish I feel there is no danger whatsoever in roasting them, ESPECIALLY after their bad play has just won them a pot.

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I think you are wrong by a lot.

There are all sorts of rationalizations people give for antisocial behavior. "I was just putting him on tilt." "He's too stupid to understand." etc. The fact is that you are making it less pleasant for casual players to play poker. Even if you don't care about being a jerk, poker would not be nearly as profitable without the casual players.

In addition, enough repetition does make people aware of basic facts of poker. For example, not every ace is playable. It takes much longer for fish to realize that if no one says, "How could you play A3o?"

Now, maybe you are right, and you can soothe your wounded ego by telling off a lucky fish. Maybe I am right, and doing so is horribly destructive. What is the risk/reward ratio? How sure do you have to be that you are right in order to make up for the damage you will do if you are wrong? I think the conclusion is pretty clear: Grow up, and stop berating the fish.

Re: Putting Fish to the Flame. Harmless fun, or education?
 

PlayerX: "You limped in w/ 83 UTG? WTF were you thinking moron?"

FishyMcFish's Says : "yeah, i was thinking I'd limp in and flop 2-pair against your AA and win this pot, just like I did. BOOYA!" but he thinks to himself "hmm raise means that moron prob has big PP and he's too dim to get away from it ...my implied odds are astronomical here...lets take a look at this flop."

FYP
[img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

Re: Putting Fish to the Flame. Harmless fun, or education?
 

this is a horrible move, you are only empathising with the way YOU would react, if you were the fish being berated.

Many fish arent like you and act differently to certain situations. Unless you are a psychiatrist, then it's best to just play it as we always have.

Re: Putting Fish to the Flame. Harmless fun, or education?
 

[ QUOTE ]
i think you're overlooking the fact that, whether or not they take your "advice", berating them might cause them to get up and leave. most poor players are playing for fun. they're playing poker because they enjoy it. certainly, being called an idiot is not enjoyable.

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Certainly this is true and a relevant point, depending on the player. Some players highly enjoy confrontation, and I was more thinking about players who make bad plays and are themselves cocky trash-talkers of sorts despite their poor play and lack of understanding of the game. But yes this is a good reason not to berate a fish (in live play anyway, i think flaming a fish online in the comfort of his own home won't have that effect unless you are particularly ruthless with your attacks). My main point is that you almost certainly aren't going to educate them by flaming them, so that is no danger, and yet people use that as reasoning. Scaring them from the game may or may not be a danger depending on their personality, but if there's any chance you might do so then refrain from abusing them by all means.

Re: Putting Fish to the Flame. Harmless fun, or education?
 

you're right in that the confrontational sh!t-talking types may be a different story. i think these guys are rare though, and the majority of fish are normal, decent people who probably don't deserve the abuse.

Re: Putting Fish to the Flame. Harmless fun, or education?
 

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you're right in that the confrontational sh!t-talking types may be a different story. i think these guys are rare though, and the majority of fish are normal, decent people who probably don't deserve the abuse.

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Yes, I'm sure some of them like it and will come back for more.

But, I'm sure a majority will decide this is not a fun way to spend their time and money.

One way to help is to report these rude mf to support. Most sites want their games to be fun places to play.

I hope all my fishies are rich, don't care to improve, and will have fun playing (and losing) for years to come. I may think they are a major idiot (at least as far as poker goes) but I'm never going to say an unkind word to them.

Re: Putting Fish to the Flame. Harmless fun, or education?
 

just get used to saying NH dude, and move on. Put the play into your memory banks and wait for the next hand to come.

Re: Putting Fish to the Flame. Harmless fun, or education?
 

I have no problem with fishes playing 83 off suit. As a matter of fact I do not see a reason to discourage them from doing so.

Re: Putting Fish to the Flame. Harmless fun, or education?
 

Neither do I. As i said, I don't think flaming them will discourage them from playing it, as long as they won with it. You won't be able to tell them sh!t if they're busy stacking chips.

Re: Putting Fish to the Flame. Harmless fun, or education?
 

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Neither do I. As i said, I don't think flaming them will discourage them from playing it, as long as they won with it. You won't be able to tell them sh!t if they're busy stacking chips.

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But why risk it? Don't bite the hand that feeds you.

Re: Putting Fish to the Flame. Harmless fun, or education?
 

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But against a true fish I feel there is no danger whatsoever in roasting them, ESPECIALLY after their bad play has just won them a pot.

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Forget about the perils of tapping the glass. Maybe, just maybe, there is some merit in not being an [censored].

Re: Putting Fish to the Flame. Harmless fun, or education?
 

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It's often said not to criticize a fish for his/her poor play. The logic is that you don't want them to realize they are making mistakes and correct them

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i think the logic stated is crap - i think you need to get some perspective - its a card game people play for pleasure - behaving like a wanker to such people has stuff all to do with your skill at the game or ability to win money - it just makes you a wanker

stripsqueez - chickenhawk

Re: Putting Fish to the Flame. Harmless fun, or education?
 

[ QUOTE ]
PlayerX: "You limped in w/ 83 UTG? WTF were you thinking moron?"

FishyMcFish's Says : "yeah, i was thinking I'd limp in and flop 2-pair against your AA and win this pot, just like I did. BOOYA!" but he thinks to himself "hmm raise means that moron prob has big PP and he's too dim to get away from it ...my implied odds are astronomical here...lets take a look at this flop."

FYP
[img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

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hahah gg, leave

Re: Putting Fish to the Flame. Harmless fun, or education?
 

easy way to deal with the bad beat vs fish
1) agree with the fish,
2) understand the way he thinks
3) empty his pockets
4) say thank u

Re: Putting Fish to the Flame. Harmless fun, or education?
 

Not only must you consider the effect of your words on the winning player, but you must also be aware of how your criticism affects your other opponents. You immediately flag yourself as a "thinking" player who knows at least a little bit about "strategy". Just because an opponent cracked your AA with 83o doesn't mean that she's thinking about how good she is for doing it. Most players who will play 83o are generally thinking, "I only have 2 cards and there's still 5 more to come, I can't fold because there's still so much that can happen!" By opening her mind up to the fact that maybe there's something wrong with it, there's a greater chance of her stumbling on to the idea of playing cards that have better potential to turn into good hands. This can easily mean that instead of playing 83o, she will now only play 83s. It's not a great improvement, but it is an improvement.

The next thing that I'd like to point out is that you simply aren't making it comfortable for her to play against you. These are your customers! Happy customers supply more money! Let EVERYONE at the table know that you are playing in good spirit! Fun games are always more profitable.

Re: Putting Fish to the Flame. Harmless fun, or education?
 

Do you realize how dumb this post is? Let's look at two players:
Player A is solid, except has the bad leak of limp 83o UTG.
Player B is solid, except has the leak of berating fish whenever he takes a bad beat.

THE LATTER LEAK IS MUCH WORSE THAN THE FORMER, particularly in live games and as the stakes increase. Not because you educate the fish, but because you might drive them off or make the table atmosphere less conducive to gambling. It's even more annoying to everyone else, because this is one of the few poker mistakes you can make that hurts everyone at the table except, ironically, the fish.

Re: Putting Fish to the Flame. Harmless fun, or education?
 

I would want to encourage him to keep playing this way - in fact, I would probably want to say something to get him to play even looser. Something like "hey, I guess that's why there are 5 cards out there. Any two cards can win anytime."

Re: Putting Fish to the Flame. Harmless fun, or education?
 

This has already been addressed so perhaps you missed it. Everyone, including me, agreed that any scolding that might discourage said fish from playing is to be avoided entirely, but not because you might educate the fish. Which was my whole point; there's little to no danger in accidentally teaching a fish something esp. after winning a pot. And there isn't. At all.

And there are situations where it can not possibly scare a fish from a game either (such as after busting from a tourney, or if playing online). And, in addition some fish enjoy confrontation and will come back for more. All of this was already addressed. All of this you ignored and proceeded to re-state what someone else already said and was already agreed upon by everyone. If there's a possibility any action you take could scare a fish off whether it be berating them, or not giving them a massage while they're at the table, then do not do whatever that action is. An obvious maxim never to be violated. Glad you agree.

Re: Putting Fish to the Flame. Harmless fun, or education?
 

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And there are situations where it can not possibly scare a fish from a game either (such as after busting from a tourney, or if playing online)

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If you're suggesting that online, nobody would leave a game because they got pissed at your abuse, then I think you're mistaken.

Re: Putting Fish to the Flame. Harmless fun, or education?
 

Still possible but about 10x less likely what with having the ability to block player chat and all, and being in the comfort of your own home.

Re: Putting Fish to the Flame. Harmless fun, or education?
 

Is it really fun for you to bitch at the fish?

The fish are good people, sucking at a game in my oppinion is not a readon for being insulted.

And people who do insult other for sucking at a game should look to correct some problems they have themselves.

Re: Putting Fish to the Flame. Harmless fun, or education?
 

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Is it really fun for you to bitch at the fish?

The fish are good people, sucking at a game in my oppinion is not a readon for being insulted.

And people who do insult other for sucking at a game should look to correct some problems they have themselves.

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I wasn't claiming to be a model citizen, I'm certainly a monumental d!ckhead by all accounts. I was merely attempting to objectively examine this phenomena and it's effects.

Re: Putting Fish to the Flame. Harmless fun, or education?
 

In terms of educating a fish... it can be correct if, by doing so, you prevent that player from quitting poker permanently. Personally, I think there's a certain merit to be had for the notion of expanding the poker community (ie my cardroom now spreads 14 tables instead of 12). However, I think there are better ways to approach the matter.

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And there are situations where it can not possibly scare a fish from a game either (such as after busting from a tourney, or if playing online). And, in addition some fish enjoy confrontation and will come back for more.

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Poker is a game about the long run. While you may not chase this fish out of the game now, she may begin to avoid you at the table. There are also profitable side games that go along with many tournaments. This problem is actually worse online where it's so easy for players to find another game.

As for enjoying confrontation... as long as you are making it fun for your customers to lose money to you, then this is not a mistake. The resulting problems are that (a) you cannot be sure of this fact; and (b) the rest of the players at the table may not enjoy your attitude, even though you aren't directly targetting them.

Re: Putting Fish to the Flame. Harmless fun, or education?
 

Whoa, I just thought of something that almost made my head explode.

If berating a fish and scaring him away is a fish move in itself, then wouldn't it also be a fish move to berate a fish FOR berating another fish since doing so scares said fish from his own games and likely into your games?

Re: Putting Fish to the Flame. Harmless fun, or education?
 

Educate them? Any low limit tables I've played at 2/4 or 4/8 think the game is completly about luck anyways. Belive me, I am far to nice a guy at the poker table and do tend to speak up when I see someone doing something completly stupid. But you know what the most common response is? "Are you kidding? I won so many times with that hand!" They don't want to be educated, some people just want to get lucky every now and then.

Re: Putting Fish to the Flame. Harmless fun, or education?
 

i have to agree that if they don't even know how to play it doesn't hurt to rip on them because they think you're kidding. they love it. some of my friends will learn from this, so i keep my mouth shut. but 2 of them think they make good plays calling raises with 62 because they've cracked big hands with it. they think you're talk is anger and they give you more action from it.

Re: Putting Fish to the Flame. Harmless fun, or education?
 

Stop trying to rationalise the fact you are an [censored] table coach.

Shut your damn mouth at the table and smile when they drag a pot with 83o.

There are a few sad assholes out there looking to upset people. Most fish are just looking to have fun and very few people find getting berated by a stranger fun (you obviously do or you wouldn't have posted this shining example of stupidity).

Re: Putting Fish to the Flame. Harmless fun, or education?
 

You missed half of what I said. Even if the fish remains, he and everyone else at the table will play differently because of the atmosphere you have created. Instead of calling bullshit all the time, having fun when they hit, and enjoying themselves, they're now trying to beat you. They'll try to bluff, they'll try to pull funky check-raises, they'll 3-bet you out of pique, and that's all bad for you. They're not going to learn about the odds or correct technical play, but making a fish angry is only going to make him play better.

Re: Putting Fish to the Flame. Harmless fun, or education?
 

In my experience, it sometimes hurts and never helps to berate fish or their play. Every book by every top theorist says not to do it.

You can't know what kind of fish you're dealing with until you make your unnecessary and rude commentary. And once you've made the comment, it's too late to take it back.

I've actually gotten into arguments with people about this many times. I picked up a line from someone else that was very useful. I say something like "Please don't discourage bad play." And then, "Do you hate money?"

The do you hate money line is pure gold and gets people thinking about what they're doing.

I recommend it to all "Fish Preservation Society" members.

Re: Putting Fish to the Flame. Harmless fun, or education?
 

[ QUOTE ]
Whoa, I just thought of something that almost made my head explode.

If berating a fish and scaring him away is a fish move in itself, then wouldn't it also be a fish move to berate a fish FOR berating another fish since doing so scares said fish from his own games and likely into your games?

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In a word, no. It's a meta-fish move to say something to a fish to improve their play. While a bad play, it affects you directly and it's something you want to stop. Lou Krieger had the best quote basically saying you make money from the idiocy of your opponents, not your wonderful play. And when you cut off one good source of income at any table, you're making a huge mistake. One good leaky player can turn a slightly unprofitable table into a very profitable table. And words can easily plug the leak.

Additionally, while your post was sort of cute in its attempt at a hall of mirrors type thing, a fish that's fish move is to berate fish might otherwise have a good game so you don't necessarily want that critic fish in your game. You can predict that such a player is more likely to tilt because they're hyperemotional (and may be tilting and responding to a bad beat that just occurred). However, I still think you lose something if the critic affects the play of a loose, leaky fish. Additionally, a player with some skill on tilt is a much more difficult opponent with which to deal than a calling station type fish. It's certainly been the case in my experience.

Re: Putting Fish to the Flame. Harmless fun, or education?
 

this is a funny subject, because at my game there is 1 guy who comes in and is rich but if you prod him and taunt him he will actually play worse and be more of a fish hahaha as bad as this sounds. The first time i palyed with him, i felt bad that all the regulars were teasing him.. but apparently he plays there more than i do so.. there is some merit to taunting SOME fish.. hes actually a nice guy, handed out a few pay cheques.. i just hope hes rich and not some guy wiht a huge gambling problem

Re: Putting Fish to the Flame. Harmless fun, or education?
 

I haven't read the whole thread, but I don't think anyone has yet pointed out that criticizing a fish's play may be +EV or -EV, but regardless, it's utterly classless. I see this a lot, and find most attacks juvenile, nasty, and pretty cowardly, really, because generally people don't behave so poorly in a cardroom. No doubt some people are capable of politely advising someone not to play 8-3o, but most can't help but throw a "s***head" in there as well. The philosophical discussion of fish-flaming is nice and all, but I fear that it will give license to a legion of hotheads with a superiority complex.

Re: Putting Fish to the Flame. Harmless fun, or education?
 

haha sometimes its more fish-taming than fish flaming

Re: Putting Fish to the Flame. Harmless fun, or education?
 

I'm with the majority here - "Tapping the glass" is a terrible idea. Even if it doesn't change the behavior of the fish in question, it is still likely to discourage other players from gambling it up when you're in the pot. Or even if you're at the table.

I've seen more than enough nice loose tables go bone dry after some jerkwad lays into one of the fish following some bad beat. Don't do it!

Re: Putting Fish to the Flame. Harmless fun, or education?
 

oh i know most ppl agree, but some ppl lke to tap the glass on the forums too haha. someones gotta b devils advocate