67s on the button, 8 to the flop, i flop top pair
 

<font color="blue"> I hate the flop bet in retrospect. Anyone see a turn fold or a river bet? </font>


Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is Button with 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. CO posts a blind of $2.
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, CO (poster) checks, Hero calls, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (8 SB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(8 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, MP2 checks, MP3 checks, CO checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, SB folds, BB calls, <font color="#CC3333">UTG raises</font>, UTG+1 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 calls, CO folds, Hero calls, BB calls.

Turn: (8 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
BB checks, <font color="#CC3333">UTG bets</font>, MP3 calls, Hero calls, BB calls.

River: (12 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
BB checks, UTG checks, MP3 checks, Hero checks.

Final Pot: 12 BB

Re: 67s on the button, 8 to the flop, i flop top pair
 

The flop bet is correct and necessary, so is the flop call.

The turn call is also a no-brainer (you've got a gutshot and your 7 outs are good).

The river is iffy, if it is a VB then it is very thin.

Re: 67s on the button, 8 to the flop, i flop top pair
 

Perfect.
No need to hate the flop bet, it's easy.
Absolutely no way to fold anywhere.
And I don't think you can bet the river for value.

Re: 67s on the button, 8 to the flop, i flop top pair
 

You're supposed to raise preflop. Then the rest of the hand is much easier. Also, 3-betting the flop the way you played it is a strong option.

Re: 67s on the button, 8 to the flop, i flop top pair
 

[ QUOTE ]
The flop bet is correct and necessary, so is the flop call.

[/ QUOTE ]

I understand that the call is automatic when it's check/raised, but I take exception to the bet being obviously correct.

This bet does nothing to defend our hand. Anyone with any hint of a draw, even two overcards, is correct to call.

The bet does nothing to protect our hand, our equity will change dramatically on the turn, either up or down. I see this is a pretty clear check actually.

Re: 67s on the button, 8 to the flop, i flop top pair
 

[ QUOTE ]
This bet does nothing to defend our hand. Anyone with any hint of a draw, even two overcards, is correct to call.

[/ QUOTE ]
When overcard hands fold to our flop bet - we gain A LOT! (Not to mention that we easily have enough equity on the flop to put a bet in and grow the pot a little)

Re: 67s on the button, 8 to the flop, i flop top pair
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This bet does nothing to defend our hand. Anyone with any hint of a draw, even two overcards, is correct to call.

[/ QUOTE ]
When overcard hands fold to our flop bet - we gain A LOT! (Not to mention that we easily have enough equity on the flop to put a bet in and grow the pot a little)

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, hoping that big fields of small stakes fish all will make incorrect lay downs is stretching it a bit.

This hand is similar to the TT example in 'Two Overpair Hands' in SSH. I'll happily claim that Ed would agree to wait for the turn. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

Re: 67s on the button, 8 to the flop, i flop top pair
 

I am thinking about raising the turn here.
1. He might get scared of the paired board and fold a better 7.
2. You'll probably get a free showdown.
3. You bet the river if you improve and make more money.

Re: 67s on the button, 8 to the flop, i flop top pair
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
This bet does nothing to defend our hand. Anyone with any hint of a draw, even two overcards, is correct to call.

[/ QUOTE ]
When overcard hands fold to our flop bet - we gain A LOT! (Not to mention that we easily have enough equity on the flop to put a bet in and grow the pot a little)

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, hoping that big fields of small stakes fish all will make incorrect lay downs is stretching it a bit.

This hand is similar to the TT example in 'Two Overpair Hands' in SSH. I'll happily claim that Ed would agree to wait for the turn. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

The hands aren't similar at all and you'd be pretty wrong to hope that Ed would agree that checking the flop in an 8SB pot when no one has shown any interest and you have a fair amount of equity.

The conversation of offering infinite odds vs. offering limited odds has been covered before. In addition, your gutshot adds to your potential equity in this hand.

This is an easy flop bet.

Rob

Re: 67s on the button, 8 to the flop, i flop top pair
 

Our equity against 7 completely random hands is ~18.2%. The random hands equity is ~11.7%. A 'fair share' would be 12.5%. Notice that we are actually likely to improve and still lose, our showdown equity is significantly lower than our chance to improve.

If we are sure that 6 people will call our bet we can treat a bet like pumping a draw, actually we want to be fairly certain all 7 will call as atleast 4 of them hold a non-random hand.

If for some bizarre reason we were sure our opponents were so tight that a bet would cut it down to 1-2 villains we could bet for that reason. The problem is that we are going to end up somewhere between those extremities.

Betting to avoid giving infinite odds is a good point though. (And I retract the likeness to 2OP hands) It's pretty much the only point really.