Flop nut straight...played right?
 

200NL on Pokerroom. Generally passive game with its fair share of idiots. I start the hand with $255, LP has $245 and BB has $200 even.

Two limps, I limp in MP/LP with 6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]7 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], and one limp behind me. Blinds complete and we see a flop of

Flop: ($10) 3 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]4 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]5 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

BB bets $5, fold to me and I call, and LP calls. Three of us to the turn.

Turn: ($25) [3 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]4 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]5 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

BB checks, I bet $18, LP calls, BB calls.

River: ($79) [3 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]4 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]5 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]]2 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

BB checks, I bet $60, LP raises to $120, BB folds, I call.

How'd I do? All comments welcome.

The Doc

Re: Flop nut straight...played right?
 

I raise the flop and pot the turn.

Re: Flop nut straight...played right?
 

Why raise the flop? None too many cards hurt me and I'd love someone to catch a 6-high straight on the turn.

The Doc

Re: Flop nut straight...played right?
 

Raise flop to get money in and to make people pay if they have a set, 2 pair. Also raise becuase people will call drawind almost dead.

Preflop, I prefer raisinf or folding this hand. Too often I get stacked by a higher flush so Iv recently stopped limping most suited connectors.

Re: Flop nut straight...played right?
 

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Why raise the flop? None too many cards hurt me and I'd love someone to catch a 6-high straight on the turn.

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would you raise with a set?

Re: Flop nut straight...played right?
 

i like the idea of trying to get max value for this hand.. but you made a few key errors i'd like to explain.

the flop is somewhat of a kind of situation that if you raise here you can probably eliminate one opponent and the one who initially bet out will call anyways.. and now the field is thinned and your chances of winning at showdown are higher even though right now you have the best hand.

with flops like this its very likely he limped with a small pair and you dont want multiple opponents with many different combinations of hands when you are sure you can nail the guy who overplays his set.

on the turn you have to wonder why both of them flat called here. if they've made their straight also.. im pretty sure anybody would come here with a raise because of the spade draw and relatively passive betting rounds.

with that miniraise on the end.. what do you put him on when you call? or did you get too excited about your made hand and forget about whats in front of you.. because that is a costly error.

Re: Flop nut straight...played right?
 

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Why raise the flop? None too many cards hurt me and I'd love someone to catch a 6-high straight on the turn.

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would you raise with a set?

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90% of the time. Sometimes when I have a set on a coordinated flop like this one I'll call the flop and hammer the turn if it's a brick, and play for a small pot otherwise.

The Doc

Re: Flop nut straight...played right?
 

yeah but this turn is a very dangerous card.

i will probably overbet the pot in this case many times.

when that 3rd spade comes and you get a miniraise w/ a straight on the board.. that is reaaallly sketchy after theyve been check-calling the whole time.

Re: Flop nut straight...played right?
 

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i like the idea of trying to get max value for this hand.. but you made a few key errors i'd like to explain.

the flop is somewhat of a kind of situation that if you raise here you can probably eliminate one opponent and the one who initially bet out will call anyways.. and now the field is thinned and your chances of winning at showdown are higher even though right now you have the best hand.

with flops like this its very likely he limped with a small pair and you dont want multiple opponents with many different combinations of hands when you are sure you can nail the guy who overplays his set.

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I didn't think the BB had a set, because if so it's likely he would either bet more on the flop or go for a c/r, in order to get more money in quickly. And I ruled out a set from LP as well, because he didn't raise the flop either.

I think a my call on the flop can be defended because so many people like to raise their pair + draw type hands in an effort to end the hand there. Thus I called hoping someone would make a play at the pot with a hand like 56 (or even a set...when I called I didn't know that LP wouldn't raise) so that I could then wake up with a big reraise.

As it is, with a bet small, call, call situation, I didnt think a set was too likely. I put both of them on one-card draws.

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with that miniraise on the end.. what do you put him on when you call? or did you get too excited about your made hand and forget about whats in front of you.. because that is a costly error.

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I agree, I probably should have pushed...the only argument against that is that if he does happen to have a flush (like 6s 7s or something) then I get screwed. Overall however I think he has a 6 more often, for the one-off-the-nut straight, and he'll definitely call a push with that.

Good post!

The Doc

Re: Flop nut straight...played right?
 

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yeah but this turn is a very dangerous card.

i will probably overbet the pot in this case many times.

when that 3rd spade comes and you get a miniraise w/ a straight on the board.. that is reaaallly sketchy after theyve been check-calling the whole time.

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I wonder why you think the 2s is so dangerous. What percentage of the time do you think a runner runner draw is lurking among a player that bet the flop small and a player that overcalled?

The overbet idea is interesting because a naked 6 is coming along anyway...

At the time I thought the ideal situation would be to bet slightly less than the pot and get an ace (which just made the wheel) to play back at me. Moreover, If the nut flush draw is sticking around, then it should definitely make a big raise...

I guess overall what I'm trying to say is I bet less than the full pot on the turn because a) I still had the nuts and wanted lesser made hands to stick around, b) Hoped to get played back at by hands that just got there, and c) Didn't assign a high % to a runner runner spade draw being out there.

The Doc

Results
 

LP had Q [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]5 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] and MHING.

Sad. I'm still looking for (non-results-oriented) input as to whether the hand was appropriately played or not.

The Doc

Re: Flop nut straight...played right?
 

well you also need to consider the fact that he knows its a dangerous board to bet into wiht several limpers even with a set.

he probably want to get it to showdown cheaply. that and he nails his backdoor flush.. which is a very good possibility.

Re: Flop nut straight...played right?
 

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I guess overall what I'm trying to say is I bet less than the full pot on the turn because a) I still had the nuts and wanted lesser made hands to stick around, b) Hoped to get played back at by hands that just got there, and c) Didn't assign a high % to a runner runner spade draw being out there.


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This may be nitpicking, but what made hands call your $18 turn bet but would fold to a full-pot $25 bet? I think few if any. But a $25 bet does a better job of pricing out the admittedly-unlikely-but-nevertheless-possible draw that could beat you. I'd pot the turn.

Re: Flop nut straight...played right?
 

true. i agree with the percent that this will be a flush or not. but from my observations.. a miniraise is a strength move.. not a crying hope for a fold.

just the way he went about deciding to turn up the gas on the river is something that i take into consideration when i make an estimate as to whether my hand is good or not.

Re: Flop nut straight...played right?
 

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I guess overall what I'm trying to say is I bet less than the full pot on the turn because a) I still had the nuts and wanted lesser made hands to stick around, b) Hoped to get played back at by hands that just got there, and c) Didn't assign a high % to a runner runner spade draw being out there.


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This may be nitpicking, but what made hands call your $18 turn bet but would fold to a full-pot $25 bet? I think few if any. But a $25 bet does a better job of pricing out the admittedly-unlikely-but-nevertheless-possible draw that could beat you. I'd pot the turn.

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Ax?

The Doc

Re: Flop nut straight...played right?
 

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true. i agree with the percent that this will be a flush or not. but from my observations.. a miniraise is a strength move.. not a crying hope for a fold.

just the way he went about deciding to turn up the gas on the river is something that i take into consideration when i make an estimate as to whether my hand is good or not.

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Agreed that min-raises are strength moves, especially in generally passive games. But there is some % of the time that he has a naked 6 on the river, and some % of the time it's a bluff trying to get me to fold a chop (if we both play the board, for example). I obviously must call his river raise...and probably a push too, if he chose to do that.

The Doc

Re: Flop nut straight...played right?
 

its probably a coin flop situation here.. but i will personally call more times than push.

theres always the possiblity he came in with A-6 which would have been a hand you could call with on this turn.

Re: Flop nut straight...played right?
 

I think you played it perfect.

Re: Flop nut straight...played right?
 

really very dangerous?
it is a great card as it makes a straight for an A and for a 6.
Would i prefer a rainbow 2..sure. but nearly 3/4s of the cards on the turn is going to be second to a suit. so according to you almost any card is a dangerous card.

Re: Flop nut straight...played right?
 

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really very dangerous?
it is a great card as it makes a straight for an A and for a 6.
Would i prefer a rainbow 2..sure. but nearly 3/4s of the cards on the turn is going to be second to a suit. so according to you almost any card is a dangerous card.

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Well put.

The Doc

Re: Flop nut straight...played right?
 

well i guess i should just sling my money in the pot next time and just forget about all the possibilities..?

any card is dangerous when dealing with limpers and cold callers and then a miniraise on the river.. how can you say i think every card is a dangerous one?

if the opponent has made his draw on the turn hes probably betting it. and now theres one guy coming in for a raise on the river saying hes either scared or something, made a good second best hand, or he knows you're coming and wants to get value for his backdoor hand.

Re: Flop nut straight...played right?
 

its well put.. but it also doesnt bring any evaluation into the scheme.

we're talking about this hand because it has a lot of different scenario's and is the question of losing or winning a large pot.

Re: Flop nut straight...played right?
 

all i was talking about was your comment about the turn card, not the river card.
the only cards that can beat you on the turn is when the board pairs or somebody hits a gutshot (but not very likely to be played here).
neither of those hit.

how can i say that you think every card is dangerous..well you just said the turn card was dangerous since it put two spades on the board. almost 3/4s of the turn cards will put two of a suit on the board, add in cards that pair the board, we have a very high % of cards, that by your defition are dangerous.

Re: Flop nut straight...played right?
 

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yeah but this turn is a very dangerous card.

i will probably overbet the pot in this case many times.

when that 3rd spade comes and you get a miniraise w/ a straight on the board.. that is reaaallly sketchy after theyve been check-calling the whole time.

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Wait, the turn is a "very dangerous card?" I would say that it's one of the best cards we can hope for.

Later you say there are many different scenerios, but are there honestly any scenerios here other than runner-runner flush and someone happening to have it due to being a complete donk that actually hurt the hero?

Re: Flop nut straight...played right?
 

I’d have raised the flop 100% of the time here. You want to get all the money in and the chances of that happening are better if you build the pot. You also want someone with A2,54 or 33 to play back at you instead of getting scared by a bad turn. And you want to disguise your hand for the times you have 88 or 56 and want folds.

Decent turn card for you – I bet more here, primarily because weaker hands are likely to call. Donks with A’s or 6x should pay you off for at least a bet, and sets/flushdraws, and two pair might call too. Tho you scare away mid pairs, you were not likely to get their stack anyway. And this is no more a dangerous card than 35 other cards in the deck.

Note that as played, if LP saw your hand and knew how you’d play the flop/turn, then his flop call is easily correct.

-g