... so I took my ball and went home - 88
 

5/10 6-max (6-handed)

Hero is cutoff with 88.

MP limps, Hero raises, SB and MP call. MP is 41/17 and plays about the same postflop except he's more into betting than raising. SB is a 62/10 pretty LAG postflop with heavy big street raising.

Flop is A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. They both call my bet.

Turn is 6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] and they check to me again. There are 4.75 BB in the pot and I decided to just give up. No more money unless I get another snowman.

Too weak? Or a realistic assessment of my winning chances?

Re: ... so I took my ball and went home - 88
 

I don't play anywhere near 5/10 yet but I think you are being realistic.

You raised preflop so an autobet was expected after they all checked to you. It is possible Hero is ahead but very vulnerable so I think the flop bet is a good semi-bluff / free card play. Turn misses (even though not really scary) but based on your reads I think check/fold UI is more than reasonable.

edit: p.s. - I LMFAO at the title of your post, nh!

Re: ... so I took my ball and went home - 88
 

i think i like. i also dont play 5/10.

Re: ... so I took my ball and went home - 88
 

I think this is way too weak.

There is a large chance you are still ahead, bet to charge flush draws/weak flop calls fold to a raise, check behind the river ui.

Re: ... so I took my ball and went home - 88
 

I agree w/ your play, only on occasion will it be someone donking a draw and such. But if they are the type to Tommy Angelo u, makes it hard to fold, usually. Even if they call your bet, hard to know where u are at. Also it sucks if they raise as well. Hard choice. Its either c/f or c/c on this turn, imo.

EDIT: when typing this I forgot that u were in last position here. My last comments were meant if u were OOP.

I played a hand a lot like this today, except I was in the sb and very tempted to check but did not.


PokerStars 5/10 Hold'em (3 handed)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
Button calls, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises</font>, BB calls, Button calls.

Flop: (6 SB) J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, BB folds, Button calls.

Turn: (4 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, Button calls.

River: (6 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, Button checks.

Final Pot: 6 BB

Results in white below: <font color="#FFFFFF">
Button has 9s Ac (one pair, aces).
Hero has 8h 8s (one pair, eights).
Outcome: Button wins 6 BB. </font>

Re: ... so I took my ball and went home - 88
 

[ QUOTE ]
I think this is way too weak.

There is a large chance you are still ahead, bet to charge flush draws/weak flop calls fold to a raise, check behind the river ui.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes, we could be ahead - but with a medium pocket pair with overcards on a two-tone turn board AND based on hero's reads (SB likes to raise big streets) I think the check is the better play. I don't think anything we beat folds to a bet here (after they both called the flop), there are 2 seperate potential flush draws on the board, and why fold to a raise here when you can see the river for free with a marginal holding?

Re: ... so I took my ball and went home - 88
 

nh. Eventhough a flush draw is out there you cant push this imo.

Re: ... so I took my ball and went home - 88
 

The chances that one of them has an Ace or Jack is pretty high. Plus, if they are calling that flop then they are calling the turn with whatever draw they might be on. So, if you aren't already behind (which I think you are) then you will have to dodge a gazillion river cards to take this down. I give up here, too.

Re: ... so I took my ball and went home - 88
 

[ QUOTE ]
5/10 6-max (6-handed)

Hero is cutoff with 88.

MP limps, Hero raises, SB and MP call. MP is 41/17 and plays about the same postflop except he's more into betting than raising. SB is a 62/10 pretty LAG postflop with heavy big street raising.

Flop is A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. They both call my bet.

Turn is 6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] and they check to me again. There are 4.75 BB in the pot and I decided to just give up. No more money unless I get another snowman.

Too weak? Or a realistic assessment of my winning chances?

[/ QUOTE ]

I have been thinking about this recently and I think that one of my leaks is firing again on the turn against similar loose preflop opponents.

The chances of you being ahead at this stage is quite slim. The chances of you pushing someone off a better hand is precisely 0% with these type of opponents.

Re: ... so I took my ball and went home - 88
 

Sounds good to me.

Re: ... so I took my ball and went home - 88
 

Are you seriously folding to a SB river bet?

Re: ... so I took my ball and went home - 88
 

I like the check. They might put you on a Jack that was afraid of the Ace, so if neither one has a Jack and they don't make a hand on the river, they might check to you again.

Re: ... so I took my ball and went home - 88
 

I think it's close, but probably correct against these opponents (assuming I am interpreting your description correctly).

If one of the players was more on the TAGish side, I'd be inclined to bet. Sometimes what happens is that a player with the middle pair will fold, figuring that hero or the other person has the Ace. And then you're actually left against the one player who was on the draw. But because your description makes me think that both players probably would call with a J, the line looks ok to me.

Re: ... so I took my ball and went home - 88
 

Against one of these guys I'd bet the turn and check behind on the river, but I don't know if its likely enough for both of them to have worse hands to allow us to bet. I'm also too lazy to do any hand ranges.

Re: ... so I took my ball and went home - 88
 

I think its fine, I might call if it goes SB bet, MP fold and the river was a nonflush 2,3,4,5,6,7,9

I think its likely that SB bets almost all rivers after you check behind, I don't want to overcall, but I think he'll have something busted 1/5.75

Re: ... so I took my ball and went home - 88
 

this seems like a pretty easy check to me. They're not gonna have lower pairs or gutshots enough imo (flushdraws often show aggression on the flop) to warrant a bet. Also you avoid getting checkraised and can hit what is usually a 2 outer.

Re: ... so I took my ball and went home - 88
 

I like your line.

Re: ... so I took my ball and went home - 88
 

Sounds fine, the turn is the major decison point so your goign to showdown or not.

I think they may have A or J (MP 41VPIP guy moreso that 61(SB)) however 88 is weak and this river card will affect it durastically.

Check behind and re-evaluate if Mr 61VPIP bets i think.

You're reads confuse me though.

Would SB bluff bet ? Would MP? Or do they have top/second pair to bet? Are they brainless?

Re: ... so I took my ball and went home - 88
 

I might fire another barrel. The two diamonds out there on the flop help. Also, there's some chance the player to act first after your turn bet would fold a J.

Re: ... so I took my ball and went home - 88
 

" there's some chance the player to act first after your turn bet would fold a J. "

pretty much no chance IMO

Re: ... so I took my ball and went home - 88
 

Really? LAGish doesn't necessarily mean stupid. Sounds like small blind likes to raise. If he can't bring himself to raise with a weak jack in this situation, then his only option to continue playing is to call down two more big bets against what he figures is an Ace. I think he might fold a jack here.

Re: ... so I took my ball and went home - 88
 

Indeed underestimating one's opponents is a fatal flaw; however factors such as big bets to reach showdown and position are trumped by the possibility of winning combined with the fear of losing should his hand be best or become best. This is his psychological weakness.

Ours can be projecting our own understandings of the game and particular situations onto others unnecessarily for the purposes of retaining hope and/or executing what we believe to be the optimal play. We take solace in the fact that we played the hand well - because that is what we tell ourselves even though we did not.

With regard to the hand, I'd fire. Their range of hands and the fact that they have in no way defined them as pairs higher than eights justify it. Previous action and feel could swing it to a prudent check though.

Re: ... so I took my ball and went home - 88
 

i like it.

Re: ... so I took my ball and went home - 88
 

Making plays that feel weak/tight always leave a bad taste in your mouth (well, mine anyway). No better hand is folding, that is for sure. Getting chk-raised on the turn sucks pretty badly too. Flush draw aint folding so one of your 8's is likely dirty. But you already know all of this...
If it goes SB bet, MP fold on a non [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] river you calling?
Gotta think the turn check behind induces a bluff from one of these guys some portion of the time..

The operation was a failure ... (results)
 

Not only are my eights good, I only need one of them.

The river was a black nine and it checked through. SB showed 52o for a wheel gutshot. MP showed 5 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]4 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] for a different wheel draw turned OESFD. MHIG.

I always feel sheepish when this happens. OTOH if I can win this way when I'm best maybe that confirms that I don't need to bet or call.

I notice I forgot to include my suits in OP. For the record 8 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] is in hand but the 8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] isn't.

Thanks for your comments.

Re: ... so I took my ball and went home - 88
 

Haven't read other responses.

I generally agree and definitely agree with the turn check. With two overcards (one of which is an Ace) and three draws out, I don't think you have enough equity here to warrant betting the turn. Plus you will get check-raised often here and have to fold (occassionally folding the currently best hand) and foregoing the opportunity to hit one of your two outs.

The one caveat is gthat after you check, if a total blank falls (e.g., 2 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]), SB leads and MP folds, I might call to pick off a potential bluff from SB. Even there it is close as his bet would have been into two players thus reducing the chance that he is bluffing.

Re: ... so I took my ball and went home - 88
 

Hi Stellar-

I like the way you played this. The problem with the turn is it opens up another flush draw, and players like this can occasionally do things like c/r when they pick up a strong draw on the turn. I don't want to put in more than one bet here on the turn or river, and 8s aren't strong enough to worry too much about giving free cards. There's also the chance that one of these players, despite their wretched stats, is on a WA/WB line and will donk the river even if they just call your turn bet.

I check through the turn and call a river bet from the SB unless the card is something frightening like a broadway that completes a 3-flush.

Re: ... so I took my ball and went home - 88
 

Read the responses and the more I think about it the more I like this line. I tend to bet this with the intention of taking a free showdown UI but I realize I am doing it too much an folding too many turns to a c/r.

Just curious about your potential river play here:

1) In the actual hand it is checked to you on the river, is this worth a bet? Or is there no value because nothing you beat is going to call?

2) It was said if SB bet a non-scary river and MP folded several would call. What if SB checked and MP bet, are you folding because SB is still to act _so your not closing the action) and MP is not as LAG as SB according to your read.

Dopey [img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

Re: ... so I took my ball and went home - 88
 

[ QUOTE ]
1) In the actual hand it is checked to you on the river, is this worth a bet? Or is there no value because nothing you beat is going to call?

2) It was said if SB bet a non-scary river and MP folded several would call. What if SB checked and MP bet, are you folding because SB is still to act _so your not closing the action) and MP is not as LAG as SB according to your read.


[/ QUOTE ]
1. Getting a nine makes things much worse and totally rules out a river bet IMO. It's exactly the sort of card that beats you but doesn't trigger a bet by the opponents. It can actually have the opposite effect of persuading a potential bluffer to just check and see if his 9x is good.

Anyway I didn't intend to bet in any case.

2. Certainly SB betting a blank and MP folding is the best case and I always reconsider situations like this before actually folding. Your judgment is often clearer after you see the 2 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] and MP has folded. Generic judgments made on the turn often overlook extenuating details that come up later. Still I'm looking for a parlay here:

A. SB must be willing to bluff two people despite signs that I'm turtling with an underpair to the ace and won't fold.

B. SB must have a losing hand and the whole point of the deal is often he won't.

Also there is a big problem recognizing blanks on this board. I mentioned the 2 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] because another poster gave it as an example of an obvious blank, but actually it's a death card that gives MP the nuts.

Re: ... so I took my ball and went home - 88
 

Grunch:

I'm playing up to 5/10 these days, and I think this is fine. I'd definitely call a river bet from the SB, but fold if MP overcalls.

If it were just MP, I'd bet a [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] on the turn, but that'd be the last bet I put in.