HOH II Problem 9-3 (p 177)
 

Briefly you are UTG+1 with Q6o and M under two. You are still away from money. Edit to say nine person table, you have 4600 and blinds are 600-1200 75 ante.

He advocates a push for a few basic reasons:

1. Any A, K Q or medium cards is enough to go all in.

2. He is interested in in being the first to enter the pot.

I didn't think this was the right play for a couple of reasons:

1. You have a barely above average hand maybe 51-58% hand.

2. You have one free shot to pick up a hand if you fold and point two above holds by definition.

3. If worst comes to worst you have a chance to pick up a hand in the BB and you might be lucky enough to be heads up against one player.

I don't think going all in is awful, I just think waiting is a little better.

Thoughts? Sorry if this hand has been discussed.

Re: HOH II Problem 9-3 (p 177)
 

in tpfap sklansky writes about a situation like this and says to fold, that you need beter than just an average hand. If i stop being lazy later i'll go and find a quote w/ some math in it.

I think i like a push here though.

Re: HOH II Problem 9-3 (p 177)
 

There are some other factors that play into a push here, but for the most part I like it. It's especially effective if you haven't been going haywire and have a fairly tight pre-flop image. If there's a BB or SB who has a sominate chip lead and doesn't mind gambling, then I'd second guess pushing so early in here.

Re: HOH II Problem 9-3 (p 177)
 

With that short a stack and seven players behind you, you'll usually get called in at least one spot when you push. In general you'd have a 20% probability of stealing the blinds, I'd estimate, maybe less.

I think you need to fold the Q6o, though I'd push 98s as it won't be as much of an underdog against the range of hands that will call you.

Re: HOH II Problem 9-3 (p 177)
 

[ QUOTE ]

in tpfap sklansky writes about a situation like this and says to fold, that you need beter than just an average hand. If i stop being lazy later i'll go and find a quote w/ some math in it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, the math he does in there though, i believe is for when you are VERY short (like under 2 BBs), and have zero FE. Here, with about 4 BB, you at least have some chance of taking it down. even if its only 20-30% here, thats still pretty significant.

Re: HOH II Problem 9-3 (p 177)
 

I don't mind the push although for me it would depend on the other stacks. If I have one or two of the really big stacks behind me then I would fold a hand this marginal. If they're thinking players they could see me making a desperate move to pick up some chips before the blinds take me down to 2BB and call me with Kx or Ax (I would do the same thing in their place).

Any other time I like the pushhhhhh

Re: HOH II Problem 9-3 (p 177)
 

I completely agree with Harrington, and have been practicing this diligently lately and the "first in vigourish" is HUGE IMHO. You have very little FE, but sometimes it is enough and when you do get called, you may get lucky or even get called with suited connectors or random hand lower than Q.

Re: HOH II Problem 9-3 (p 177)
 

[ QUOTE ]
I completely agree with Harrington, and have been practicing this diligently lately and the "first in vigourish" is HUGE IMHO. You have very little FE, but sometimes it is enough and when you do get called, you may get lucky or even get called with suited connectors or random hand lower than Q.

[/ QUOTE ]
That doesn't make sense to me; you say the first-in vig is "HUGE" but we have very little FE. Isn't FE the whole point of first-in vig?

Why not wait til next hand? We'll be UTG so still have the first-in vig. And we'll probably be dealt a better pushing hand than Q6o.

Re: HOH II Problem 9-3 (p 177)
 

I remember this passage and one thing I am confused about is does the fact you have a few more chips make it more reasonable to push, less reasonable to push, or make no difference.

I am not sure but I think you will basically play any two in the big blind (if my math is right you will only need high twenties ev) but the more chips should give you a bit more leeway in some sense right?

If players know you are likely to call any all in, your few more chips might make it a tiny bit less likely they will push. Probably very marginal, and anwyays I suck at these situations.

I avoid them by generally donking out early on big bluffs doomed to fail.

Re: HOH II Problem 9-3 (p 177)
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I completely agree with Harrington, and have been practicing this diligently lately and the "first in vigourish" is HUGE IMHO. You have very little FE, but sometimes it is enough and when you do get called, you may get lucky or even get called with suited connectors or random hand lower than Q.

[/ QUOTE ]
That doesn't make sense to me; you say the first-in vig is "HUGE" but we have very little FE. Isn't FE the whole point of first-in vig?

Why not wait til next hand? We'll be UTG so still have the first-in vig. And we'll probably be dealt a better pushing hand than Q6o.

[/ QUOTE ]

First of all I said first in vig is HUGE (in general), secondly first in vig is not JUST about FE but also "showdown value".

Re: HOH II Problem 9-3 (p 177)
 

[ QUOTE ]
Why not wait til next hand? We'll be UTG so still have the first-in vig. And we'll probably be dealt a better pushing hand than Q6o.

[/ QUOTE ]

You probably won't be dealt a better hand next time, plus it will look pretty obvious if you are UTG as it will be your last chance to raise enough to scare people away before you are in the blinds.

Re: HOH II Problem 9-3 (p 177)
 

I was just reading this last night. I think Harrington's logic is pretty compelling, though I am not sure he was explicit about all of it. In a nutshell:

* You have better FE UTG+1 than if you wait another hand because there is one less player to act (one already folded) and it appears less desperate than a UTG push

* Your hand is at least of average or better strength, meaning that its just as likely that this is the best hand you can get in first with as that you will get dealt a better one next hand

* You have a hand that if called is unlikely to be dominated. An AQ will call, 66 maybe from a pretty big stack, obviously QQ, but what other dominating hand is calling you here? KQ?

Re: HOH II Problem 9-3 (p 177)
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I completely agree with Harrington, and have been practicing this diligently lately and the "first in vigourish" is HUGE IMHO. You have very little FE, but sometimes it is enough and when you do get called, you may get lucky or even get called with suited connectors or random hand lower than Q.

[/ QUOTE ]
That doesn't make sense to me; you say the first-in vig is "HUGE" but we have very little FE. Isn't FE the whole point of first-in vig?

Why not wait til next hand? We'll be UTG so still have the first-in vig. And we'll probably be dealt a better pushing hand than Q6o.

[/ QUOTE ]

i don't think q6o is a bad pushing hand. there is a decent chance you're going to get called by a blind with a hand like J5 or T4s (he's getting a little better than 2:1) so having a hand with some big card value is nice. 98s would be better, but i would take Q6o over 53s, for example.

Re: HOH II Problem 9-3 (p 177)
 

There's a chart floating around here indicating the chance of getting a better hand within x hands. Without looking at the chart i can say that you won't get a better hand as the next hand, Q6 is quite strong (compared to all possible hands).

Re: HOH II Problem 9-3 (p 177)
 

what is the "Ban Stick"? is that for clubbing people with?

Re: HOH II Problem 9-3 (p 177)
 

Whether this is correct or not I'm not real sure.

But I'll tell you one thing, if you have ever watched Dan
play, he ain't pushing with this in a real life situation.

Bruce

Re: HOH II Problem 9-3 (p 177)
 

you have to be kidding. did you see his squeeze play in the '04 championship with 2 rags like 38o in which he pushed over a million chips in (i'm going by memory here).

Re: HOH II Problem 9-3 (p 177)
 

bruce,

I've never played with Dan but I have to say my gut feeling was along these lines. You get in a tournament situation like this and if its important to you money wise you just sometimes take your chances waiting for the next hand hoping to get lucky.

Not sure if that makes sense.

Re: HOH II Problem 9-3 (p 177)
 

A squeeze play is a completely different scenario. You're
comparing apples to oranges.

Bruce

Re: HOH II Problem 9-3 (p 177)
 

not really, not when you say the man who wrote the book (or co-wrote) doesn't follow his own advice. He even states that he will take advantage of his tight table image to throw out a bluff. This is not even a bluff type decision, this is a getting ready to be run over by a mack truck, on life support type decision. RED ZONE.

Re: HOH II Problem 9-3 (p 177)
 

This seems like an easy push to me. Waiting a couple more hands might give you on average (and I'm not even sure about this) a better hand, but this does not overcome the fact that you will have to push into one or more players because you are in an earlier position. This is an important factor that definately comes into play.

Re: HOH II Problem 9-3 (p 177)
 

Everytime you've watched Dan Harrington on TV he's always had millions of chips in front of him and has never been in this kinda situation. I'm pretty sure he'd push with the hands he mentioned in his book.