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-   -   The Ultimate Question (http://archives2.twoplustwo.com/showthread.php?t=363681)

David Sklansky 10-23-2005 02:05 PM

The Ultimate Question
 
I've been meaning to bring this up for quite a while and will do so now because it came up in another thread.

"Why would it be anything other than simply getting to be the little lucky sperm and egg that made it through gestation to allow me to become a person?"

So only that combination turns into "you". Might some other combination turn into the same "you" except with freckles (or a different sex organ)?

benkahuna 10-23-2005 02:43 PM

Re: The Ultimate Question
 
[ QUOTE ]
I've been meaning to bring this up for quite a while and will do so now because it came up in another thread.

"Why would it be anything other than simply getting to be the little lucky sperm and egg that made it through gestation to allow me to become a person?"

So only that combination turns into "you". Might some other combination turn into the same "you" except with freckles (or a different sex organ)?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think you have to consider the fitness of all the sperm that make it to the egg and contribute to the breakdown of the egg membrane allowing one sperm to enter the egg. From what I understand, it takes the catalytic enzymes of multiple sperm to breakdown the egg. There's an element of luck involved, but genetics and the developmental/environmental aspects of spermatogenesis would determine what type of sperm would be most likely to reach the egg. Obviously luck is a major factor in which sperm make it. I'm saying there's a little bit of a team element involved with differential fitness for some members of the team increasing the probability of a specific range of "yous" rather than a singular luck factor as you imply here.

From a more philosophical perspective, the whole notion of "you" is pretty vague here. I would expect different genetics to lead to very different outcomes in a chaotic manner. How different would my life have to be for me to no longer be me? The combination of nature and nurture (genetics and environment) results in the person we become so from the point of DNA fusion producing a zygote, different, I'd even expect startlingly different, outcomes would result from the interactions with a zygote/morula/blastula/gastrula/neurula with one genome with its environment (the mother's Fallopian (also called uterine) tube and then uterus).

I could see the strict dependence upon initial genetics conditions resulting in a discernably different me though I would probably have a similar set of talents, disease profile, other physical traits, and behavior.

Obviously, my perspective is one of linear causality.

So, those are the assumptions under which I operate.

I consider action to be the defining characterist of a person. As Kuato said, "You are what you do." Given that is the case and given how unlikely I consider the action in a person's life to be the same with slight tweaks in genetics and interaction with the world in a chaotic manner, I'd say it's unlikely I would be the same me if my genetics were slightly altered by me having come from a sperm a couple microns away from the one that lead to me.

Piz0wn0reD!!!!!! 10-23-2005 03:27 PM

Re: The Ultimate Question
 
ive wondered this myself.

RJT 10-23-2005 04:37 PM

Re: The Ultimate Question
 
Is the following another way of asking the same question (and a few follow-ups)? If not the same - I think it can be included in the discussion, no?

If (when?) we can clone humans, will the clone be the same person? Can a clone exist at the same time as the original; or does the clone have to be “born” after the original is dead?

Is there something other than only DNA? (To the believer, I think there is - the soul. Non-believer’s - not sure, maybe the mind/thought/consciousness.)

DougShrapnel 10-23-2005 04:49 PM

Re: The Ultimate Question
 
[ QUOTE ]
I've been meaning to bring this up for quite a while and will do so now because it came up in another thread.

"Why would it be anything other than simply getting to be the little lucky sperm and egg that made it through gestation to allow me to become a person?"

So only that combination turns into "you". Might some other combination turn into the same "you" except with freckles (or a different sex organ)?

[/ QUOTE ]I think that they have settled on 60% nurture 40% nature. Certainly people would nurture you differently with a different sex organ. Perhaps even so with freckles. But I on the other hand am a unique snowflake.

Piers 10-23-2005 04:56 PM

Re: The Ultimate Question
 

[ QUOTE ]

"Why would it be anything other than simply getting to be the little lucky sperm and egg that made it through gestation to allow me to become a person?"

So only that combination turns into "you". Might some other combination turn into the same "you" except with freckles (or a different sex organ)?

[/ QUOTE ]

No.

Well I guess you can be ‘inventive’ about your definition of you. But really the answer has to be No.

10-23-2005 04:58 PM

Re: The Ultimate Question
 
Please define what is meant by "you".

David Sklansky 10-23-2005 06:37 PM

Re: The Ultimate Question
 
"Please define what is meant by "you"."

Your sense of "self". What religious people call the soul.

10-23-2005 06:41 PM

Re: The Ultimate Question
 
Here's my response in the other thread:
Yes, it would be very likely that a different sperm would give me only minor physical differences, but retain the same mental capabilities. However, another sperm could carry vastly different genetic information which would in turn no longer be recognizable as what I consider "me".

Had another sperm penetrated the egg first, there may not even have been a birth. Could I have been anyone other than me? Physically, yes. Mentally, no. How much did my upbringing effect who I am? If I had a different genetic makeup, I could have had a completely different hardwiring that would change completely who I am. I would no longer be me. "I" wouldn't exist, and a stranger would be responding.

What is the probability that a percentage of the sperm would still lead to "me"? According to http://humrep.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/14/8/2036 the variance in sperm is quite high. So, as far as who "I" am, I consider myself extremely lucky to have come to be.

malorum 10-23-2005 06:57 PM

Re: The Ultimate Question
 
[ QUOTE ]
Your sense of "self". What religious people call the soul.


[/ QUOTE ]
mind body dualism is not supported by all strands of christianity.

According to some Christians and some Atheists
The mind, soul and body together make up the 'person'.
Any seperation is either artificial or temporary, depending on your religious beliefs or lack thereof.


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