Hand #2, OOP trying to buy a few outs.
 

3/6 live game, 7 handed
The Button is a thinking aggressive player who becomes very aggressive with position. He has raised my BB 4 outta the last 6 times.

Hero is in the BB with A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Preflop, 3 limps, 1 fold, <font color="blue"> Button Raises </font> , SB Folds, <font color="red"> Hero calls </font> , limpers all call.

Flop (5 players, 10 SB)

5 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

Hero Checks, 3 checks, <font color="blue"> Button bets, </font> <font color="red"> Hero Raises, </font> 3 folds, <font color="blue">Button Calls </font>

Turn (2 players 6 BB)
2 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
<font color="red"> Hero Bets, </font> <font color="blue"> Button calls </font>

River (2 players, 8 BB)

9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

<font color="red"> Hero Bets </font>

LLL

Re: Hand #2, OOP trying to buy a few outs.
 

This looks like major spewing. You read says that he's raised your BB 4 times - but on this hand he's also raising 3 limpers. Your read says nothing about how apt this player is to lay down his hand.

PF call is fine. C/F the flop.

Re: Hand #2, OOP trying to buy a few outs.
 

Crunchy1 is entirely right. There are some spots where, even though it's a big pot, a C/F is in order. On the flop you have no hand and only the weakest of draws. If Mr. Agressive has raised you so often then you will have other opportunities.

Re: Hand #2, OOP trying to buy a few outs.
 

I would 3bet preflop (edit: because of your read). if he calls the flop and turn i'm done.

Re: Hand #2, OOP trying to buy a few outs.
 

[ QUOTE ]
I would 3bet preflop (edit: because of your read).

[/ QUOTE ]
YUK!

OP's read does not factor in 3 limpers into the read. If this was a steal situation - I agree, it's an easy 3-bet. However - it's not a steal situation.

I can't see any situation where a 3-bet here is favorable. I mean - even if we knew it would fold out all 3 limpers - do we really want to isolate a thinking, aggro player OOP after he's shown strength against 5 players?

Re: Hand #2, OOP trying to buy a few outs.
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I would 3bet preflop (edit: because of your read).

[/ QUOTE ]
YUK!

OP's read does not factor in 3 limpers into the read. If this was a steal situation - I agree, it's an easy 3-bet. However - it's not a steal situation.

[/ QUOTE ]

OH MAN.... missed the limpers. I thought it was a button steal. 3betting is criminal.

Re: Hand #2, OOP trying to buy a few outs.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Your read says nothing about how apt this player is to lay down his hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

I strongly believe he can lay down a hand.
Also, when He has been raising my blinds, there has always been at least a couple of players limp in before his raise (this is 3/6 after all [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img])

Re: Hand #2, OOP trying to buy a few outs.
 

[ QUOTE ]
Also, when He has been raising my blinds, there has always been at least a couple of players limp in before his raise (this is 3/6 after all [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img])

[/ QUOTE ]

So basically - he's just a LAG.

[ QUOTE ]
I strongly believe he can lay down a hand.

[/ QUOTE ]
You "believe he can lay down a hand" - OR - "your read based on previous observations is that he lays down hands". There's a big difference.

Sorry LLL - but any way you cut this hand - it's still spewing. A7s (A-high @ showdown) in a raised, multiway pot just isn't a winning strategy.

Re: Hand #2, OOP trying to buy a few outs.
 

Ok, lets destroy my thinking here.

1) Preflop call is fine

2) On the flop, I have an overcard, a backdoor flush draw and a backdoor straight draw. I check the flop, The Button bets which I felt he would do regardless of the flop if all checked to him.

3) Still on the flop, The pot is now 11 SB's. I'd rather not fold. I may not have a ton of outs, but I may have enough.

4) I thought that if I raised the flop, a couple of things might happen. 1) Might knock out a higher A, freeing up some outs. It might buy me a free card (yes I am OOP, but often I can check raise on the flop and not get bet into after I check the Turn). 3) I get a little info on how much the villain likes his hand.

So, folding was not an option I looked at. With 11 SB's in and it being one back to me, my choice was between call or raise. I chose raise for the above stated reasons.

5) The turn, I picked up a few more outs, and the flop call from an aggressive villain told me that he was probably not really happy with his hand. I bet out again hoping to fold him. I didn't.

6) The River sucked. I didn't hit my outs. I am not calling with A7 but I will bet with it. I felt that a bet was my only hope to win the pot. I felt I had a better than 8:1 odds he'd fold a better hand.

Rip it apart.

LLL

Re: Hand #2, OOP trying to buy a few outs.
 

My first reaction is: Why do you raise the flop here? . . . you got a lot of folds but thats bad when you are drawing! You want people to call when you are drawing . . . only raise to protect when you have something worth protecting. (Ace high??). If he has a pair of T's you really only have 3 A outs (maybe 1.5 for flush, 1 for straight) that may not be any good if naybody has a bigger ace. I would probably fold (or call if the table is loose enough that everyone behind you will call)

On the turn You can't really raise for value against 1 opponent with the flush draw you picked up. Are you hoping he will fold? He called your C/R so he probably has something or a really strong draw.

Why do you raise the river? He has called you down so far . . . (if he is thinking) he most likely has a pair of T's with a kicker not quite good enough to raise with . . . Do you put him on a busted draw?

Re: Hand #2, OOP trying to buy a few outs.
 

[ QUOTE ]
My first reaction is: Why do you raise the flop here? . . . you got a lot of folds but thats bad when you are drawing! You want people to call when you are drawing . . . only raise to protect when you have something worth protecting. (Ace high??)

BD flush and BD straight are MAX 3 outs . . . the straight isn't even that strong

On the turn You can't really raise for value against 1 opponent with the flush draw you picked up. Are you hoping he will fold?

Why do you raise the river? He has called you down so far . . . (if he is thinking) he most likely has a pair of T's with a kicker not good enough to raise with . . . Do you put him on a draw?

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks for the response.

I raised the flop with the hope of folding a better A and cleaning up a few outs. I did not think folding was a good idea. I had no strong draws but a few weak ones combined. Since I was going to call, I thought a raise was slightly better for the reasons I stated earlier.

On the Turn, I wasn't betting for value, I was betting for fold equity.

On the River, I either let the pot go with a check or hope I can fold a better hand. I thought I had the odds to try to get him to fold.

Re: Hand #2, OOP trying to buy a few outs.
 

Fold the flop. You have nothing OOP with 3 other players to act behind you.

Re: Hand #2, OOP trying to buy a few outs.
 

[ QUOTE ]
2) On the flop, I have an overcard, a backdoor flush draw and a backdoor straight draw. I check the flop, The Button bets which I felt he would do regardless of the flop if all checked to him.

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't see how you can give yourself more than 3 outs here. Getting 11-to-1 with 3 players left to act behind and a good chance that hitting means a second best hand - this seems like a really, REALLY easy fold.

[ QUOTE ]
4) I thought that if I raised the flop, a couple of things might happen. 1) Might knock out a higher A,

[/ QUOTE ]
I don't see AJ-AK folding here. in a LIVE game people gambool. That leaves the only hands worth folding being A8/A9. It's just not worth it.

[ QUOTE ]
It might buy me a free card (yes I am OOP, but often I can check raise on the flop and not get bet into after I check the Turn).

[/ QUOTE ]
With an AGGRESSIVE player acting last?!?

[ QUOTE ]
5) The turn, I picked up a few more outs, and the flop call from an aggressive villain told me that he was probably not really happy with his hand. I bet out again hoping to fold him. I didn't.

6) The River sucked. I didn't hit my outs. I am not calling with A7 but I will bet with it. I felt that a bet was my only hope to win the pot. I felt I had a better than 8:1 odds he'd fold a better hand.

[/ QUOTE ]
I just don't think that in a LIVE 3/6 game we should be trying to fold out better hands. Your odds of folding a better hand in this spot are not even remotely close to the odds the pot was offering at this point IMO.

Re: Hand #2, OOP trying to buy a few outs.
 

To crunchy1. Solid commentary.

Point 1. I don't see how you can give yourself more than 3 outs here

Is the consensus that my Ace has no out value whatsoever. I counted 2.5 or so for the backdoors and a couple for the ace.

Point 2. I don't see AJ-AK folding here.

From the Villain or from The other players? I see the villain calling but not any of the others. If Villain has AJ or better, He will call but may not stick around for showdown.

It seems as if the consensus is that this is spewing. I will look at it.

1) I think preflop is fine (per me and majority)

2) The raise on the flop is suspect per majority (so fold&gt;raise&gt;call?)

3) The Turn is read dependent but majority says check/call vs bet

4) The River is fine IMO but most say check/fold


Thanks for any and all input.

Re: Hand #2, OOP trying to buy a few outs.
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don't see how you can give yourself more than 3 outs here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why not? 1.5 outs for the flush and about 1.3 for the straight and even without the ace outs we are looking at almost 3 outs. I would estimate about 3.6 myself, and I think a call on the flop would not be horrible at all. I think it depends on how often someone else c/r's.

Re: Hand #2, OOP trying to buy a few outs.
 

Definately spewing. He has you beaten here almost every time. When he doesnt fold to your turn bet I do not see how you can bet out again on the river.

The only hands he is folding here are hands you already beat (KQs, QJs). The line you took here is "OK" (with a very strong player read) as long as you dont bet the river but is definately not the most +EV (or the lowest -EV) line you can take on this hand.

I think a call on the flop is much better, especially if its your standard 3/6 live game where you are expecting at least some of the limpers to come along for the ride as well.

Check/folding the turn UI.

If it gets checked through to the river, I am again strongly leaning towards check/fold.